Time We Discuss: Becoming a Sommelier with Nathan Bihm

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Nathan Bihm: I would say well I want to do that but I just want to say like the most important thing to the most important takeaway from being a sommelier is and I just want to say it one more time is

Dan: Today on Time to Discuss, I want to welcome Nathan Bihm and it's time to discuss what it's like being a sommelier. Nathan, thank you for joining me today.

Nathan Bihm: Hey, it's good to be here.

Dan: So I meant to do this before we started recording. So for starters, am I even saying that correctly? Is that correct? The sommelier?

Nathan Bihm: Oh, yeah, it's funny. That is the like technical term. I've started greeting tables when I'm on the floor just as like, depending on the tables vibe, your wine nerd or your wine person. It's like, hey, I'm your nerd. I'm, you know, I'm a grape juice nerd. Let's not worry about pronouncing French if you don't want to.

Dan: I absolutely love that. I'll see if I can remember to use one of those terms during the course of our conversation so I can skip the French.

Nathan Bihm: But if you want to say sommelier, you can just say some-L-E-A … sommelier.

Dan: Okay, perfect. Perfect. So let's start there. So wine nerd, grape nerd. What do you actually do?

Nathan Bihm: Just to walk you through an average day. And I'll walk you through an average day when I was going through testing at the beginning of my sommelier career, just to give a more accurate one. If you're in the education sort of grind, I would on a blind tasting day, wake up at about 8:30 and get to a blind tasting group. And then I would have a quick lunch and then I would get to my job to the restaurant at about two, let's say, with maybe some study in between. And then I pick up boxes of wine and put them down in the cellar and put them away in bins and make sure they're organized and put those in a computer. And I polished glassware from the night before, like extra nice glassware or special stems for regular guests. Then I might do an educational session with some staff members before the shift starts. And then when the shift starts, we're folding napkins, we're doing meetings to discuss regulars. And then do you have service start? And that is the treat, I would suppose, is actually the thing that you see sommeliers do is the reward for all of the other backend work, which is going up to tables that are looking at a wine list and saying, Hey, I'm your guy. If you want to talk about narrowing down some of those bottles that you've never heard of, or you just want to chat.

Dan: That is awesome. I'm so blown away by this, because this is so far outside of my world. So for starters, I don't like wine. I've tried so many different wines, but I can never find one that works for me. So I've just kind of given up. So this is kind of really outside of my world, which I absolutely love.

Nathan Bihm: Well, I tell you, I don't like, there are $5,000 bottles of wine that I've tried that I don't like. So that is okay. Like, it's a beverage. It brings some people joy, it doesn't bring other people's joy. And that's totally cool.

Dan: what are some of the things that you ask the person when they're trying to narrow down their wine? How do you help them do that? What are some things they ask them?

Nathan Bihm: Well, I'll say let's get out of wine in general. And let's just think about you have somebody in a situation where they're coming into your restaurant, into your drawers, and they're hoping to have a great time. And you're just facilitating that. And so what I tell people is I have an acronym I teach people, which is Palm, P-A-L-M, which is you perceive the vibe of the guest, and you align your vibe with their vibe. I like the word vibe a lot, especially in a restaurant or hospitality context. And then you learn about them and what their expectations are and what they like and see if you perceive that correctly. And then you maintain that experience and adjust and you continue to do that you perceive how are they feeling. And so first, before I go to the table, I'll see body language, you know, are they flipping through the list and immediately going to the page with the most expensive bottles and being like, Oh, wow, that's crazy. At which point I might not go to the table at all, because maybe they're not looking at wine, they're just enjoying looking at which is fair, like it's some of them are stupid, and it's really fun to look at. Some of them are looking really intensely. And so I'll give them time to like flip through because maybe they're also a wine nerd and they just like looking at all the things and seeing what we have. Some people are overwhelmed, and they're just like, Oh my god, and then they just like shut this list because our restaurant specifically has a very big list. We're at Canlis over in Seattle. And then I'll go appropriately. In general, if it's someone that I think is wanting to order wine, and maybe not just someone that we want to put at ease, or be like, Hey, you don't have to look at this big thing, you know, maybe you want beer, maybe you want cocktails, maybe you want juice, like we've got it, you're good. I'll be like, Well, what are you in the mood for tonight? Like, what is what is the vibe tonight? What's going on? You know, is this a big birthday? Are you wanting to lean in and talk about and like break things down? Are you just looking for something that's yummy? And then I'll ask them what they normally like? Like, Hey, do you have any grapes that you like? Do you like white or red? Do you like stuff from a certain state? You know, do you know somebody who's a winemaker? Did you go on vacation and you had some wine on vacation? And that's a happy memory, even though you don't remember it? Or is there anything that you've had that you hate? Because at that point, you're just kind of playing Clue and just, you know, do they have glasses? Do they have orange hair? And then eventually, you're, you're getting hopefully to the point where you have something that they're going to enjoy. And then either they don't have to think about it for the rest of the night, because they have the wine in front of them that they like, and they can sip on it. Or you're talking to them a lot about the, you know, growing season or about how cool this winemaker is. Or if you've met the winemaker, sometimes people know way more than me, you know, at our restaurants, sometimes people have been vacationing in a certain region. It's like, yeah, I've been doing this for 15 years. But I haven't been going to the same wine region for 15 years, meaning those winemakers. So sometimes it's about like, shutting up and letting somebody tell me stuff and learning from a guest that is an expert in that thing, because they go there every year, you know, so it's just about perceiving what their vibe is aligning myself to that. And then learning about what they're going for, and then maintaining that relationship, maintaining that experience.

Dan: That's really cool. I love that you, you know, you've been doing this for 15 years, you know, I'm going to my words, unless you're a wine expert, but you self acknowledge that you don't know everything. And I love that. I love that you're willing to learn from the guests that come in, and they might teach you something that you might not have known that you can then share with other guests. I think that is awesome. Awesome.

Nathan Bihm: You'll see the really important thing in this role. And you'll see this across the board is if you meet famous wine writers, like if you do know wine, and you're thinking about getting into it, like the famous winemaker, or the famous wine writer, or the big, you know, sommelier, the big restaurant group or whatever, if they're an expert, they are humble, because they've been in those tasting groups. And they've called borderline called a red wine, a white wine, in front of really important people like their career, and then everyone just like laughs and you move on like you. Wine snobs are not wine experts. I can say that almost across the board.

Dan: Okay, so you talked about what you do before you're meeting up with the guests, you know, when your day first starts, you talk about cleaning the stemware and cataloging the wine and all that. What about what other things you do at the back end of your day, aside from greeting the guests and trying to help them with a wine selection that works for them? Do you do anything else aside from that at that point? Or is like from the end of the day, that's what you're doing?

Nathan Bihm: I would say once you're in the shift at night, it's a lot of that. But really, you're working in a restaurant. So imagine that you're working in a restaurant, if you've ever worked in a restaurant. It's that you are. I mean, a really dramatic example is people don't expect that if they've watched like, I don't know, one of the sommelier documentaries or things about restaurants or The Menu or The Bear. Sometimes they're not realizing that even though you're in here, you can sell the super fancy bottle of French wine one moment and then be cleaning vomit out of a priceless vase the next. Because the, you know, the lawyers in the private dining room got a little rowdy and, and that is just the reality of it. So like, yeah, you might be doing something really nasty like that, you might be sweeping up broken glassware, you might be running a lot, you should be running a lot of food that is across the board. Anyone who has been an expo at a restaurant who is the person who is making sure the food goes from the basically from the stove to the table is familiar with like, I need hands. And so you'll be doing a lot of that you'll be clearing tables and, and changing the tablecloth and making sure everything's ready for the night. Like you're just you're open run a restaurant at the end of the night, making sure that you have all the stuff you need for the next day.

Dan: That is awesome. I love getting all the, the real deal from people, you know, not sugarcoating it, we learn what it's really like, absolutely love that. Speaking with, with Glenda, she was a Grammy nominated musician back in the early half of this year. And she was talking about what it was like, you know, working in the music industry and kind of growing, you know, as an artist in the music industry, and different things that she had to deal with. And similarly to what you're saying, you know, cleaning up, you know, from your example, lawyers refunding, and the broken glass and that sort of thing. So I love hearing that because it gives that real perspective, the things that someone would be dealing with, while they're doing this job. Awesome, awesome, awesome. So before you talked about education, you talked about that very briefly in the very beginning, if someone wants to do what you're doing, how do they get started? It sounds like they have to go to a school of some kind. How do they, how do they get going?

Nathan Bihm: If you are thinking about getting started, or trying out being a sommelier, and you don't work in a restaurant, in America, this is different, maybe if you're like Switzerland, there's a lot, a whole different process. But if you're doing this, and you're working in the states, or in several other countries, really what you need to do is, is email, like, get onto Google, and Google wine distributor, in your city, and find a wine distributor. Look for the sales reps, or look for our team, email like three or four of them, and say, are there any blind tasting groups in the city? And then try to get into one of them. I say email a rep, like a sales rep, from a wine distributor, those are the people who are selling wines from importers to restaurants, they're the middle people. Email them, because they will answer their emails, most sommeliers and wine directors will not answer their emails quickly, because they're doing all the stuff I said. And try to get to know people. Show up, be serious, bring the wines that they say to bring. A lot of those people will have recommendations for some books or some blogs, show up, bring the things that they bring, prepare the way they tell you to prepare, because there's a lot of standardized ways to do that, and get to know people, and that is where your career will start. If you make that a massive priority in your life, is to make time for a weekly blind tasting group with professionals going for exams, that your career will go from there. Depending on your city, they might focus on different exams, they might focus on different ways of studying, but they're the people that are working restaurants. If you do want to try out, if you've never worked in a restaurant before, and you want to break in, then they can connect you with a good one, and you will go in and start washing dishes and busing tables. And you'll probably do that for like a year or two while you do the blind tasting group and study. And then from there, you'll know, you'll know if you want to do it.

Dan: Talking about those exams, are they, what are they like?

Nathan Bihm: They are brutal, the higher up you go. They involve a lot of study of just like anything else, the theory of wine, and you'll have wine textbooks. So it'll be a three-day process, not a class or anything that you prepare for, and you go in and one day will be taking a written test and answering questions about, you know, who makes this wine? Where is this producer from? This region uses which grapes. And then for the top people, it's, you know, in Hungary in this region, what is the river that runs through on the north side? And what is its significance, you know, in the climate? Or what is the subsoil of this subregion of this obscure area of France? And why is that important? And name three producers of that area, name five synonyms for that … it's like insane. It's really, really intense. And then you have service, which will be you serving some of the top experts in the industry. And they will put you through the ringer asking you a ton of questions. I'll be like, well, what's good about this vintage? What's good about that vintage? And you'll need to pour wine into one of those decanters, you know, you'll have to open up a bottle of champagne perfectly, you'll have to pour perfect levels, etc, etc. You might have to make a cocktail. And so those are all things that you will practice with the study group and with that community that you tap into. And then the last one, which is the one that's really famous, but it's actually one of the most straightforward ones, which is blind tasting. And that's the blind tasting group. Blind tasting is literally, if you taste a red wine and a white wine, and you look at a red wine and a white wine, you're like, cool, this is red, this is white, the acid's higher on the white, the tannin, the thing that happens whenever you, you know, have an oversteep black tea, that feeling is higher on that red. And you're like, cool, so this is a white wine and this is a red wine. And then eventually you do that for, you know, two different grapes where one grape you can see through and the other one you can't. And one has no tannin and one has a ton of tannin. And you're like, all right, well, this is more likely to be that grape because that grape has those flavors. And this other one is likely to be the other grape, right? Because one of those grapes is always super dark fruited. And then you just do that over and over again for years and you get better and better at it. And you can do it with more and more grapes. That is it. That is blind tasting.

Dan: It's so amazing because like that it's so, it's so outside of my world. It's just so, so cool. Okay. So before you talked about like different levels, I think you said, or different certifications, how many are those and how difficult, not difficult, I guess how long does it take to climb upwards and does it really matter? What's that like?

Nathan Bihm: I would say I talk about those things. I talk about the job and the exam separately on purpose because people get wrapped up in the exams and there are very high level wine professionals that have never taken any of them. So the exams are helpful primarily from my point of view for the community that you get from them. And I really can't emphasize enough how little to focus on the exams because they will come if they need to come in your market and they'll come because the community that you build is normally a community around an exam. And so the big thing is don't spend too much time looking at them and looking at the levels because if you need them, it will come naturally. Like there is so much momentum around that. The one that you pick will also come naturally as you get to know those people. And so the I would say beyond everything else's and I'll say what the levels are but beyond all else's, you know someone who is a lawyer for their whole career, who's never worked in a restaurant, who is the top level, like there's only a couple hundred, there's more astronauts than master sommeliers or whatever or masters of wine. That person is not getting a sommelier job. The person with no exam experience but the one that's been you know has been a dishwasher before and has worked really hard and has a good reputation is getting that sommelier job. So that's the number one thing is that beyond all else. So don't get stuck in it. That being said there's two famous exam tracks. There is one that is more geared for educators and writers and winemakers and can winemaking consultants and things. And there's one for people who work in restaurants. The one for people who work in restaurants is the one you probably heard of which is the master sommelier one. It's called the court of right court yes court of master sommeliers. There's also the guild of master sommeliers or the guild of sommeliers and that's really just a big forum with writing that's pretty much geared for the court of master sommeliers. Which you will learn about once you join that group. You know they can tell you about that and tell you if it's a good choice for you. And then there's three levels within that. There's there's the introductory which is pretty easy and something that I recommend anybody who's getting into the wine world like taking the introductory course for the court of master sommeliers is that is a guest who knows a bit about wine. Like that is someone who has a surface level like hey I know a little bit about wine. I'm not just saying I do but I've never actually known anything other than the wines by the glass of my restaurant. You know then they're certified of four levels sorry they're certified which is a little bit more difficult. That's where you might be doing some tasting. That's where you'll be doing some service unlike intro which is just a three-day course and a and a small test at the end of it. And then you have advanced which is a big jump up and that's where you are doing more official blind tasting. You're looking at those three master sommeliers staring at you and you have six wines in front of you in 25 minutes and they are silently encouraging and judging you as you try to convince yourself that one grape is not another grape or whatever and you flounder and do your best. And you know you'll be doing that more intense you know table side thing and you have masters which is the the one that people are fascinated with because it is difficult.

Dan: It sounds like that this is one of those jobs where it's like the most important thing isn't necessarily a credential. It's more about learning the craft if you want to call it that learning the craft and then meeting the right people. That's probably the way you're going to get to do what you're doing. Does that sound right?

Nathan Bihm: The best way to be successful as a sommelier is to try to always surround yourself with restaurant professionals who are smarter than you are both inside and outside of work. Find people who are smarter than you and get a job there of working from the bottom up and then find more people who are smarter than you at a different restaurant or at a different city and get a job there working at the bottom. You know I was a general manager of a restaurant and then I went to be a food runner at Canlis like and work your way up and be humble and find people in those tasting groups who are smarter than you and show up and respect their time and and try to lift them up as well and continue to do that rinse wash repeat. If you do that that you will be successful. I would say also remember that in any organization that you're in or any role any industry at the end of the day it's about why are you getting paid by the person paying you. So the person who's signing your paychecks, why are they signing your paychecks? And it's not because you are really good at blind tasting, it's not because you worked at a really fancy restaurant, it's because you are increasing the or you're contributing to the brand in that marketplace, it's because you're increasing profit, you're decreasing cost, and you are yeah you're making the guest experience better and you're making the experience as an employee better. That's it and so you're really just trying to get better at those things right contributing to the brand and and making the the restaurant more profitable. That's all owners care about at the end of the day.

Dan: It's interesting, speaking to so many different people. There are a lot of themes that kind of appear over and over again and the most recently I remember speaking with Eric Astor. He is an audio engineer in Los Angeles and very similar things. He was talking about at the end of the day his job is to get the ideas that artists musicians have the ideas that they have in their head and get them out, get them recorded in the way that they hear it in their head and that's the most important thing and making sure they're comfortable and providing the good customer service and all that good stuff. In a way very similar to what you're saying like your your job is to provide a certain service and increase profitability and keep everyone happy and that sort of thing. So it's kind of neat hearing how these different themes play out in the different industries when I speak to different people. So Nathan speaking with a magician Joe Holiday back in 2024. It was like the summer spring of 2024 and I said invariably you know.

Nathan Bihm: I listened to that one.

Dan:That was a good one.

Nathan Bihm:I like that one a lot. Go listen to it people. Go listen to that one.

Dan: I'll put the links up here somewhere so people can check it out. But one of the things I said to him and I referred him back to another time I'd ask the same question but I'll put it in perspective for you. When you're going to a dinner party or a friend's house or something are you automatically the guy that's in charge of bringing the wine? How does that work out for you?

Nathan Bihm: The wine snob is not the wine expert. If there is somebody who is even a little bit snobby about wine. If there's somebody who you can always tell the person who knows a little bit about wine because they're the person at the party who is like oh we're not gonna get Costco Riesling. We're gonna get this Riesling over here. That's ten dollars more a bottle but I'm telling you it's such a good value because my you know brain is in such a different place and you're like I want to buy a Two Buck Chuck and get some beer and hang out with my friends. You know what I mean? So you will be and a lot of times my job as a sommelier for my friends or as the wine guy for my friends is to really emphasize how unimportant it is because it's about the memories that we're creating together. And so yeah I would say my main role as a wine guy is just to convince people that it doesn't matter and that they should just drink what they want to drink and that's it. So I'm never bringing a special bottle just for me. That's so cringy. It's so cringy and it's such a like there's a saying that you know there's nobody who knows more about wine than someone who just passed advance. They're the they know more about wine than anyone. But that goes for every level. Like you know there's a lot of people who will pass the intro and all of a sudden they're going to their friends parties and they're bringing a really fancy bottle and then maybe they'll let their friends have a taste but they don't want to have the Two Buck Chuck and then once you get to a high level wine expert they're the ones drinking the Two Buck Chuck or a Miller High Life or whatever or meeting people at their level or not drinking at all. People like don't drink like not bringing their own wine to have with dinner while everyone else is not drinking. Like that's that's so cringy. So my role is really just to make people feel comfortable and that's also at the restaurant. It's like it's okay if you don't like wine or it's okay if you don't like expensive wine or all wine.

Dan: That is awesome. Love that. Absolutely love that. Okay so one other question I like to ask. I like to identify different barriers for people. So the classic example I use on the show you know I was I was a web developer and you know if you don't like sitting at a desk for eight hours a day or being in front of a computer for eight hours a day you know web development is not for you. So I want you to think about your job as it is. I think about one characteristic that if like if someone has a problem with this thing then this job is not for them. What would that thing be?

Nathan Bihm: What I would say is the number one is nights. Working nights and working holidays.

Dan: I was speaking with Dr. Emma she said the exact same thing. She was a pediatric neurologist and said the exact same thing. Nights and holidays because that's something you want to do especially in the beginning. Nathan I am running short on time but one thing I like to do whatever I'm speaking with someone is give them the opportunity to talk about a project they're working on, a cause they believe in, their business. So if there's something specific you'd like to discuss the floor is yours.

Nathan Bihm: I would say well I want to do that but I just want to say like the most important thing to the most important takeaway from being a sommelier is and I just want to say it one more time is Google wine distributor Your City. Email some of those distributors. Ask if there's a blind tasting group. Ask if you can be a part of it. Show up for that group. See if you can get a job through that group as a food runner or as a dishwasher and you will know. You will know very quickly. That is it. Like that's the way to do it. So yeah if you want to be a sommeliere don't overthink it. That is one two three. Email distributors get into the blind tasting group. Get a job as a dishwasher or a food runner at not even a bad restaurant. That's it. Don't overthink it. For myself, I now teach restaurant managers how to communicate better. How to have better conversations with their direct reports and with their bosses because I spent a long time in my career seeing a lot of people promoted into management that were really good at studying for the exams or really good at doing the thing but maybe not as good at having conversations with their direct reports and helping people get better. And I also help people align what they do with their strengths. I'm a Gallup strengths coach which is basically just aligning people with if they are driving through the mud how do we get the right tires on so they're getting as much traction as possible and just applying that to their lives. And so I do that a lot in restaurants because people sometimes feel self-conscious about having not gone to college or having not having a normal job and it's like hey these are your strengths you can lean into them you can do really well. And so those are my two things. So people yeah if people are interested in either of those things I just do one-on-one coaching and I'll just chat with people who are restaurant owners or managers to see if that's something that they're interested in.

Dan: That is awesome. That reminds me of a friend a friend of a friend. He did not go to college and was very self-conscious about it because my circle a lot of us went to college but he is an amazing and I hate to use this phrase but like handyman like he can fix anything he's built everything and it's like if I was a half as handy as this guy was would be amazing I can't do anything but he was like very self-conscious about not going to college. I was like it's fine like you're successful in your own way be proud of that there's nothing wrong with that. So that's that's just when you said that made me think of that.

Nathan Bihm: It's at the end of the day it's why are people paying you are you are you providing value that's it.

Dan: Exactly. Exactly. Nathan, I'll make sure I get links from you for everything that you provide with coaching all that stuff. I'll make sure I get links from you I'll put them in the show notes, they'll be in the description, they'll be all over the place so when people are trying to find you, they can easily find you.

Nathan Bihm: Yeah.

Dan: Nathan it's been awesome having you on Time We Discuss you we learned what it's like to be a sommelier.

Nathan Bihm: you so much.