Time We Discuss: What It Is Really Like to Be a Web Page Designer with Liz Theresa

Transcription

(Music)

Liz Theresa: I think we shouldn't be so bold. I think it's best to understand how a website looks with its pants down first. So like learning HTML is really good after you learn HTML, teach yourself…

Dan: Today on Time We Discuss, I want to welcome Liz Theresa and it's time we discuss what it's like being a web page designer. Liz, thank you for joining me today. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. So like I said, before we start recording, I do have a strong background in the web presence. So this is going to be a great conversation for people that want to get into the industry, but they don't know much about it as well as from people that are already kind of seasoned and just want to hear what you have to say. So it'll be cool for everyone. We don't exclude anyone. We're all friends here. This is great.

Liz: Oh, I'm a very friendly person.

Dan: I love it. Let's start. My obligatory question is usually what is a typical day like for you as a web page designer?

Liz: I wake up and I get my son on the bus and then frankly, I go back to bed a little because it's so early. So he gets on at like seven and I just think that's really early. So then I go back to bed until I want to be awake, which is like 8:30. And then I'm up and I'm a person. So I do breakfast, I go and then I just really start my day at my desk. I try on a great day to make an intentional to do list. So like I get the most important things done before I let my inbox run my day. Cause I think like that can be a temptation is like, Oh, I just want to answer everybody. And then like, but you're like, that's not actually a great use of my time all the time. So I also do like a lot of strategy calls. So like part of making a website is like not just the actual page building, but sometimes I'll do calls with clients. Cause I also help them from a copywriter perspective, come up with the right language for the pages and you know, and also like strategizing from a business perspective. So I do play in the sandbox of other parts of being a website designer just cause I have a lot of fun. I'm getting involved in other people's business. I'm pretty nosy by nature. So it's, it's just really a great time. I work with really, really nice people too. and then I end my day around like five-ish and then think about things like dinner and hopefully I defrosted the meat the night before, you know,

Dan: that's kind of important. Kind of, kind of important.

Liz: Yeah. I always used to be bad about that. Like I feel like, like we're remembering organizational thinking, like remembering to meal plan, even just knowing that I have something to do the next night is important.

Dan: It sounds like you might be self-employed, have your own business. Is that correct? Yes. Did you start out that way or did you start at a firm and then do it on your own? How did this start for you?

Liz: Yeah. So in 2011 I graduated from Bridgewater State with my masters in English and I'd only even got a master's because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had a undergrad was in English and theater arts, which theater may not be surprising, but then I got my masters in English and then I was like, I was in grad school and my parents needed help with their business. So my parents owned a company and they were like, Oh, help us with marketing. But I thought that marketing was Avon. So like I didn't know what marketing was like Avon like selling makeup. Like I thought multi-level marketing was marketing. So I was like, how do I do marketing for business? What is marketing? So I remember Googling what is marketing, which is just really surreal to think about what I do now, but I remember Googling it. I bought every for dummies book that existed, Twitter for Dummies, Internet Marketing for Dummies. I read a lot of books about it cause I was a good reader. So it was very voracious reader. So I learned everything I could, 2011 was also a recession. So I graduated with my master's in a recession. I tried to get a job in marketing communications. I did have a master's in English. So you could have lateralled that into com. And so I tried to get a lot of like, I applied for copywriter positions. I did apply for some graphic design cause I just really good at that. Um, and I wasn't getting anything. And finally I had this interview with this website. It was a website that that was hiring for like a copywriter and there they happened to have an office local. So I go and he goes like, you're so overqualified for this. You're so creative. He said, this is going to kill you. So this will ruin everything that's great about you. And I can't give it to you in good conscience. And I was like, Oh, okay. So then I left and I was like, was that a good interview? Was that a bad interview? And you're like turning it over, walking to my Volkswagen Beetle. Cause of course I had a Beetle. I called my mom. I was like, I just want to help businesses. Cause at this point I had learned, I loved marketing and I realized that marketing was as simple as communication and visibility. I go mom, I just want to help businesses show up better. I said, I can't get a job in it. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. She's like, you don't need permission. Just go do it. So then I was like, Oh wait. So I was like, as long as I just show up and say, I want to do it and ask for money, I'll just do that. And then I realized, Oh wait, that's a business. And then it's like, Oh wait, here I am now. And it's 15 years later.

Dan: I've spoken to many entrepreneurs at this point. Okay. Like I said before we started recording your episode, like 156, 157 something like that. So I've spoken to a number of entrepreneurs and none of their stories are the same, but I particularly like yours or stories like yours where it's like, you know, you went to school, your undergrad was in theater. Okay. Your masters is in English and here you are. You're doing webpage design and web marketing, not related to your degrees, which I absolutely love because to me it's like anyone can do this. You don't need a degree to do it. And I love that. I agree with that. So going back, you talked about being a copywriter. You talked about your education in English and how you can parlay that into a copywriter component.

Liz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dan: So that leads me to this question. We all think of web designers as people that put the images on the page, you do the layout on the page. Where do your specifically you, where do your responsibilities begin and where do they end? Are you doing anything with accessibility? Are you doing anything with readability? What is holistically, what are you doing as a webpage designer?

Liz: No, this is such a good question. I even think it's really funny when you put it like that. I'm like, Oh, I still use the English because the English is still the communication of the thing, but it's like, I think the way I do it must be, that's my specialness. I think is because I don't have the authentic certification or training specifically in coding and HTML and WordPress and all of that. But I do make WordPress websites. I do care about accessibility. I would say my approach varies client to client. I'm very much a person who was a copywriter. For instance, if you read a website, I write, it'll never sound like, like me, it'll sound like the person. That's my acting, right? I can get into the role of the company or person I'm trying to visually represent. And I think the same is true of website design. There are some nuances to how I do it. I care a lot about legibility for in a basic sense. I mean, we talk about accessibility is such a giant part of website design now, but like at the very least I care so much about is this easy to read. And I do care about people with disabilities. So like, I care about all of that stuff. So that does come into it. But I'm also looking at it from like a conversion perspective of like, okay, how do I make it really easy for people to like, you know, you trust you, but also do the thing that you want them to do. And then like, if I know that, how do I work backwards? And how can I work backwards to create a design that is going to fulfill that wish, right? So it doesn't just stay like a wish.

Dan: And love what you said, I wrote it down like you know, you trust you. I love that line. That is awesome. I was really cool.

Liz: Thanks.

Dan: So you talked about HTML, you talked about WordPress. Okay, so how important is knowing HTML? How important is knowing CSS? How important is knowing JavaScript when there are all these platforms that exist, all these libraries that exist? How important is that?

Liz: I wonder about how it's how much are you willing to accept yourself as you are? And are you willing to raise your bar higher? Because when I started, I only knew HTML, I learned CSS after I started. And then over the years, I learned PHP, and WordPress, I can't say I'm particularly fluent in JavaScript, although my I have team members who are so I hire people smarter than me as time passed, right? This is what you do. But I always think it's good to know what you sell. So you never want to be somebody that somebody hires to build a website. And they've they've capped your potential rather quickly. Because I get hired a lot of the time, I just had a project come in today. For somebody that hired somebody that built her website. It's true. But did it look good for iPad? Did it look good for mobile? No, because they didn't do responsive development and design. And so I was like, well, if they didn't if they only made it beautiful on desktop, that's all well and good. Good job. That's still a thing to do. However, I build it once. So I don't have to build it three times. And so she has to now pursue a redevelopment with me because I had the I have the chops that the other person didn't have. And that happens quite a lot. I mean, not that I'm the best at everything. But I'm the best because I know I'm not the best. The best people know they're not.

Dan: I would completely agree with that. I'm amazed that, you know, here we are. We're recording this in 2025.

Liz: Yeah.

Dan: And I forget, was it Ethan? I forget his name, the guy that really pioneered responsive web design.

Liz: Yeah, I don't know his name either. But it could have been an Ethan.

Dan: Yeah. And I'm thinking, you know, this is going back over a decade. And I'm blown away that people are still creating designs that they are not responsive I am blown away by that. I didn't think that was a problem nowadays. But apparently it is.

Liz: Oh, it's still a problem. You know why, too? I think it's because, you know, there are commercials that tell you you can do it yourself. It's not real until it's a website that Shopify is beautiful tagline, actually. It's not real unless it's a website. Yeah, as if like you build it, they will come. Big lie. Not true. But also, I think because there's all of these consumer grade website building products, that it makes people feel a bit dangerous. You know, like they they get a bit of a confidence dose that they're like, I did it once. I could do this for money. And I think that like it gives people too much agency and a little too much confidence. And I always say, please, like, focus on your skills. Like, I mean, I took the time to learn things. And I learn every day, like, because these things, like you said, they change so quickly. And and I mean, like, we only I didn't even know it was a thing, but like, we're official WordPress partners through pressables, like they're hosting were official. But I had to apply for that. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I think it's like, do everything you can to elevate yourself, get accredited where you can, but like, teach yourself be willing to make mistakes, but not in exchange for money. That's a good advice.

Dan: Let's talk about clients. Okay.

Liz: Yeah.

Dan: Invariably, you are going to .. a person that has a business invariably, at some point, they will have a difficult client.

Liz: Yeah.

Dan: So what are some of the ways that you mitigate your difficult clients?

Liz: Fire them. I mean, most of the time. If somebody is really taking too much of your stress and energy, it's gonna reduce the quality of your work across your clientele across your workload. And frankly, they're never worth it. I just said this to somebody the other day, we went through our we had a I had a client was generated like an export file into like a CSV to import into something else like a spreadsheet. And I was looking through and I was like, these people came from my database. And I was like, why are they still subscribed to my newsletter, some of these people like, some of them hate me, like, HATE me. And I'm a lot like, so this is also like, you have to do your best. I think also, if you're a website designer or in any profession, and you show up as your true authentic self, as visibly as possible, you're going to reduce the likelihood of getting a bad client, because they're going to see you for who you are rather quickly and decide if you're for them or you're not for them. And that's good. So visibility can solve some of these bad client issues. But they do come through the cracks, because they're like, well, everybody says she's good. So I'm just gonna hire her. But then if you come in, I mean, I don't know if I still have this sentence on my website, but I used to have a sentence that was like, my requirements for a good client. And they included a good personality. And mostly, it doesn't have to be a wholly sunny outlook on life, but at least partly sunny outlook on life. And if you are not these things and no sense of humor, you can't be here.

Dan: That's good. I love that. You're very specific about who you want to hire or who you hire you. I love that.

Liz: Yeah, well, because the money will come. I think we get so scared. Just the money will come if you love what you do. And you're seen loving what you do. And you challenge yourself to get better and better. It will come.

Dan: You kind of alluded this earlier, with the technology that exists nowadays, where anyone I use that in quotes, anyone can build a website.

Liz: Yeah.

Dan: Okay. What is saturation like is it is hard for someone just breaking into the industry to get clients? Is there plenty of work for everyone? From your vantage point, what's that like?

Liz: I haven't had any trouble getting work. Granted, I've been doing this a while. In the beginning, I was hungrier, probably, and I was younger, for sure. And I just think as long as you know, this is what you want. Don't let what the market looks like, or anything stop you from getting what you want. Because there's plenty of people that yes, can do it themselves, but they're not going to do it as well as you. And frankly, they're also going to make it look it'll look DIY. I mean, a lot of these people that are like, yes, you can build your own website. I'm like, Yeah, I guess I could build my own car out of Legos too. But it doesn't mean I drive Legos down the street.

Dan: Although how cool would that be to drive a Lego car?

Liz: I feel like Lego probably should make a Lego car and just put it in the Macy's parade. Because like, wouldn't that be great?

Dan: Your tires will never go flat again. I would love it. It would be very bumpy ride.

Liz: Very bumpy. I would be very, very Lego carsick.

Dan: Let's talk about resources and getting started. If someone wants to get started as a web page designer. And maybe they went to school for, you know, English or theater or music, or maybe they decide they don't want to go to school at all. They just want to like get right into the workforce. What are some really good resources that people take advantage of to learn the fundamentals of being a web page designer?

Liz: There's two sentences to this. I think the first sentence would be starting where you're comfortable. So like, this is to say there's probably something that you got to work on through something, you probably got to touch some project somewhere, it could have been that like, you got to work on a blog at school. And you were like, God, this is really cool to log into. Then I would say, start there. So start with what you're really comfortable with and see if you can sell your talents with what you're comfortable with while you take the time to learn the other stuff. And as far as how to learn, YouTube is your friend. Also, LinkedIn has so many excellent courses, and things like technical chops, like if you want to grow your skill set, foundationally starting with HTML, I do think is really important. I would never say go right to WordPress. That would scare me. If you are so confident, I think we shouldn't be so bold, I think it's best to understand how a website looks with its pants down first. So like, learning HTML is really good after you learn HTML, teach yourself CSS, then start to get into things like WordPress. But anytime you hit something that you don't know, don't accept that you don't know it, figure out how it works. Even if it takes you all night.

Dan: When I first started, that's exactly what I did. I actually view the source code. And I was looking to see, okay, what is this going on? At the time, this was this was many, many years ago. We used tables to control layout.

Liz: I remember, TR TD.

Dan: Yes. And I'll go in and say, okay, what's actually going on here? Okay, I see that. And you kind of reverse engineer. And that's how you learn. That's how I learned.

Liz: And now we have Box module, which is like the latest. So much fun to do development work with. I don't know. That's my nerdy speak. But Box module has like, because we went from tables to rows and columns that were responsive. And now we're, and now there's box flex box, which is so fun to learn.

Dan: Yes, I remember when I was first, when it first became a thing, I was like, yeah,

Liz: love flex box. See the first day I did flex box though. And I'm I'm this wasn't even a long time ago, I cried the whole day. I was like, I'm never gonna get it. But one day I was like, I love now I tell other people you gotta use box module. I was so obnoxious. So fun, though.

Dan: So let's go back to hiring people. Okay, so invariably, you know, you start your own business. And ideally, you want to get to the point where it's big enough that you can't handle all the work and you have to hire someone. That's the start of the dream, I'm gonna say. So, and I've heard a number of good stories on my show about people hiring their first employee. So talk to me about that. How did you do that? Was it a part time person you brought on? Was it a family member that you just start paying them under the table, and then they they kind of became an actual real employee? How did that work for you?

Liz: It's such a good story. He still works here. So I have this client named Karen, and she was kind of a Karen at times, like, you know, they say, Oh, such a Karen. So her name was Karen. She hired me as the web developer on a project, even though I do frequently do design and development on this particular project, I was just development, she had a designer design a website, I built it, then all of a sudden, she didn't like how blue it was. But I wasn't told that she didn't like how blue it was a navy blue, she didn't like how blue it was. All of a sudden, a new website comes out of nowhere. And I go, what happened to the one I made? And she goes, Oh, yeah. And I go, Well, when you fire me, you should say, Oh, Liz, you were fired from that. Like, because I was still doing it. I was still working. She paid me like, but she forgot to tell me. And anyway, the person that she replaced me and the designer with was this guy named Zach, who then I was like, I hate this guy, screw this guy, I hate this guy. And then I finally she's like, Zach, I want you to talk to Liz, like, and be friendly. And then I talked to him and I was like, Oh, my god, I love him. I love him. And then not only did I love him shortly thereafter, I would say in a matter of months, I had that moment where I knew I needed to hire somebody. And so when I needed to hire somebody, it was because I don't know if you remember this, but you might back in the day of web. But when people used to do midnight launches, what that would really mean is that at midnight, I would change a waitlist form to a buy button. I really did this at midnight. And so I would set my alarm if I already went to bed, I would set my alarm to get up at 11:45, walk downstairs, sit at my desk, put up the buy button, go back upstairs. And I remember I this is when I was married to my ex husband, my practice husband. And so I remember this. And I remember saying to him, we gotta go downstairs. He's like, this isn't this isn't normal. He's like, other people don't do this. And I was like, Oh, you're right. And I'm also resentful when I do it. Like, I love my job, but I was resentful of getting up at 11:45. So then I was like, I think it's time. So then I, I found I knew Zach, I knew he was better than me. At some things, he is a much better. I'm an excellent web developer. He's, he's the like prime rib of web development. He is so he would be like so embarrassed, by the way, I'm talking about him. He's not like ostentatious at all. He's so shy as a human. But he is so excellent. He's so sweet and so wonderful. So I said to him, I said, I will get I don't know what you make, where you work. I go, I will give you $5 more an hour. Come work for me. And he did.

Dan: That is awesome. I love that. How many people do you have now?

Liz: Well, Zach, me, and Kelly are like the full timey people. And then we have other contractors that step in for certain things like freelancers that like come in to do certain things we don't want to do. But it's really us three. I had grown beyond that. But then I came back down because I was like, it's hard to fire … hard to hire and fire, but hard to hire excellent talent. And I have a very high expectation. And that's a good thing, I would think.

Dan: Yes.

Liz: Well, that keeps the integrity of the work.

Dan: So let's talk about what things I'd like to talk about is identifying barriers early on. So you know, if a job is for you or not. So for instance, you know, if you want to be a doctor, but you can't stay on the side of blood, maybe being a surgeon is not for you. Okay. So think about something that is critical to your job. And if someone does not like this particular thing, then being a web page designer is probably not for them.

Liz: Being at your desk, that is the thing that you do a lot. It's a very desky thing. I did get a treadmill to walk while I work. And I really do use it. It doesn't just take up space. I do use it. Because I need to move and breathe and things like that. But being a website designer, if you're very committed to your work, that's something that you have to contend with.

Dan: And how often do you get to play this role where it's like you're at a family party or a friend's party and sounds like, Oh, Liz, you design websites, right? I need some help. And you get kind of drawn in …

Liz: I fix lots of phones, I've iPhones, printers, people don't know how to change the input on their television, everybody comes to me for everything. That's why they have that shirt. Do you have that shirt that says I will not fix your computer?

Dan: I do not, no.

Liz: It's a very popular website developer shirt. Oh, WordPress now sells merch and they have a mug that says Mo plugins, Mo problems. And I love it. I really want I don't think anybody bought it for me, but I want to buy it.

Dan: How would you have to deal with that where people have these plugins on their on their site, and you have to try to, you know, and maybe, you know, it used to work. And the version got updated. And now it's broken. And now it's like you need to fix it. How often does that happen?

Liz: Well, so we are very selective about what plugins that we work with. And so because we're so selective, my Zach is so selective, we choose very, very, very stable plugins, right? And plugin developers, people that are committed to security and updating. Because WordPress is open source, anyone can make a plugin, anybody can throw it in the marketplace. But a lot of these people will make these things and then go back to their job and never update it again. And this is very dangerous for website security, because you there can be vulnerabilities. I have a client right now that her site is in staging, it's not even live. And she replaced the SEO plugin that I recommend with her SEO plugin, that's got like, flashing lights and banners that are like pay for the pro version, pay for the pro version. I'm like, Oh, my God. And then I'm like, Zach, should we talk to him? He's like, but she really likes it. And I was like, Yeah, I know she likes it. And I was like, maybe just … let's research it and make sure it's really safe, that she likes it so much. I like lots of things that aren't good for me. You know, I think like people need to be more discerning. I always say websites should be like gluten free brownies, you know, like easier to digest better for the algorithm. They don't take a like, you know, a long time to load, be conscious of the ingredients that you're putting into it, you know,

Dan: that is one of my pet peeves. I'm very conscientious about what third party libraries I use. I'm very particular about the size of my images. I'm not going to throw up at 10,000px by 10,000px image that's only going to take up a fraction of an inch.

Liz: I'm big on resizing and running through tiny with the Panda to use the Panda.

Dan: I don't I don't.

Liz: He's so cute. He's my image compressor.

Dan: I love it. No, I'm very old school. I kind of like started with stuff, you know, decades ago. And I used the same thing.

Liz: Yeah, the same stuff.

Dan: And it works for me. To learn a new process, It's like, this, this works, you know,

Liz: if you get excited to meet it, I'm not sponsored by them. I just like it. It's tiny PNG. And it's kept right now because snowy out. He has snow on his like, so cute.

Dan: I think I can pick up one of the things that you could mention on this. But I'm going to throw this at you.

Liz: Please.

Dan: One of the things I'd like to ask is the particular job that you have. What are some of the hidden perks that go along with it?

Liz: Oh, I will. I like being able to be there for my son. So when the bus comes, I can be there in the bus drop some off. I can be there. If I want to stop working at two o'clock, I can stop working at two o'clock. If I want it, I can make my own schedule. You can't beat that. With web. I mean, with web, especially, you have a lot of control because I don't have as many calls as somebody that's like a therapist, for example. I do have calls because I do strategy stuff. But there are some website designers and developers that never talk in the phone. And they just work. And they're just immersed in their work. And I think if you're really introverted, it can be excellent for you. I mean, I would say I'm an extroverted introvert. After this, I'll go lay down. But I mean, it's authentically me. I'm wicked excited to be here. And so I'm very alive. But whenever I'm really alive and talking to people, I just like, so I think that's why it's a good mix for me because it gives me my downtime.

Dan: I can totally relate to that. I'm actually very similar in that I give a lot of energy and I'm very engaged.

Liz: Yeah, yeah.

Dan: But in the same way, if I'm at a social event or something, then afterwards, it's like, I just want to get away from everyone, like leave me alone for the next three hours.

Liz: Yeah, I just want to be with the TV and the dog. I don't want to do anything else.

Dan: Let's talk about emergencies. So one time I was actually at a wedding and one of my clients called me and I don't remember what it was. This is going back like 10 years.

Liz: Yeah.

Dan: And I'm trying to like resolve this problem at my family members wedding, essentially. What what is it like in 2025? Do you get and this is the only call I've ever received as an emergency?

Liz: Yeah.

Dan: In 2025. Do those calls exist? Do you get those?

Liz: Yeah, I do. I've been called at my brother's wedding. I got a call from a client that she was she woke up and she decided she hated her website. I was a subcontractor on this gig, though. So I don't do a lot of white labeling anymore. I don't do a lot of subs. But they called me at my brother's wedding and decided that they didn't like she's like, I don't know how to edit it. And I needed tutorial now. And I said, I'm at my brother's wedding. No. And then she was like, if it were me, like the lady that had hired me to white label, she was like, I would have done it for a client. And I said, you can keep this one. I go, I'm all set. I'm at a wedding. No, because my family for me, I'm very like family first. I care about my clients always. I mean, here's another one. I had a client call me on New Year's Eve, saying her website went down. It was like seven o'clock on New Year's Eve. And I answered the phone. I was like, Happy New Year's. Because I don't care. And she's like, Oh, Happy New Year. She's like, I'm so stressed. And like for her, though, it was like, Oh, your domain expired your credit card and GoDaddy, like we just need to update your credit card. And that was it. We updated it site back because it will retain the DNS record. So I went back online, she had a great night and I just helped her really quick. So if it's something quick, I'll absolutely be there. Like if it's an emergency, also, it helps to have a team. This is also why you hire people because like, if I'm not available, somebody else likely is. So I'm always there. But like, I mean, for somebody to just want to call me and moan about, they suddenly don't like to use their website. I don't care. I don't know what you don't like. She was a weird, she had a weird business. I don't like being contracted, though, because then the client doesn't know me. So it's easier. Do you know what I mean? To be like, this sucks. Like, because they don't like see the value. I educate a lot in my job.

Dan: What you're saying about New Year's Eve that reminds me of last December, I spoke to Andy was a corporate attorney. And he gave some really, very good practical advice for anyone that's doing contract work, different things that you should include in your contract as it relates to emergencies. I'll encourage everyone to go check out that video. I'll put the link up in the top in the description, all that good stuff. Liz, unfortunately, I am running out of time. But beforehand, the floor overview, I want to take a second and thank Ashley DiBiase for introducing us. Ashley was in episode 62 as a social media marketer. So everyone, please go check out that episode. A link is in the description. Now, Liz, this is the part of the show where I like to offer my guests the opportunity to talk about a project they're working on and cause they believe in more about their business. So if there's something specific you'd like to discuss, the floor is yours.

Liz: Oh, that's so nice, Dan. Do people you know what I like when people say my name, Liz, do you ever feel like it's so much more personal when you say like the person's name?

Dan: I agree a lot of times with my work email, I get Daniel because people don't know me well enough. And it's whenever I see Daniel, it's like you don't know me, you're just you're on the list right now.

Liz: I have a client who calls me Lisa sometimes and I just like let her do it. But I'm just like and then I always go Liz at the bottom, I sign my email because I'm like, come on, Lisa, or hi, Theresa. But no, thank you for giving me the floor. I think one of the takeaways that I'd like to give people is that I have this motto that I say, and I trademarked it because I care so much about it. And it's be the star you know you are. And I trademarked be the star you know you are, because I think a lot of times we can play the guest supporting actor in our own life, and in our own company. And a lot of the work that I get to do its websites physically, but the true nature of the work is helping people step to the forefront more and being willing to show up and own who you are and celebrate who you are. And that's why the work is so important. I always say this to people, the work that you get to do, that's like we get to do this, like if you pick your job, you get to do this job, the work that you get to do is so important. And so do it well, be the star you know you are be the star in what you do. Celebrate what you do a brand is a celebration of you and a website is a celebration of your brand. These things are all things that I think are so important to remind people, because it can kind of reinvigorate your own passion in your own heart for the work that you get to do.

Dan: Liz, I love so many of these things that you're saying. I mean, it's just a great, great perspective. And so refreshing, you know, taking that, the work that you do it and taking a lot of pride that goes along with it. And you know, this idea that you get to do certain things and you should be happy for that and embrace that and showcase it. That is awesome. That is really cool.

Liz: Do be ostentatious, you know, be bold about the things that you love and love them fearlessly. And I think that's what's made me successful is I really, really, really care. Like I could wax poetic about it. You know, I really care about my clients and then they know it and that's why they stay. And so I think sometimes when we talk about being a website designer, it's like you are a name, but you change lives in nature. You know, you really can.

Dan: And that is so true, but especially, you know, being the gateway on the internet for someone's business. I mean, you have a lot of power at your hands.

Liz: Yeah, yeah, it's a privilege.

Dan: Liz, it's been absolutely awesome having you on Time We discuss and we learned what it's like being a web page designer.

Liz: Thank you.