Time We Discuss: Tattooing Career with Holly Danesi of Black Vulture Gallery

Transcription

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Holly Danesi:You're not doodling on a piece of paper. You are inflicting discomfort on a living person. And you have to be a good person.

Dan:Today on "Time We Discuss" I wanna welcome Holly Danesi and it's Time We Discuss what it's like being a tattoo artist. Holly, thank you for joining me today.

Holly Danesi:Thank you, Dan.

Dan:Oh, this is good. So oen of the things I really, really like about when I speak to people, if I stumble across an occupation and I know pretty much nothing about it, I just love that. So I know nothing about tattoo artists. I know several people that have tattoos. I know a little bit about the process, not a lot, but fortunately you do. So let's start there. For you, Holly, what is a typical day like as a tattoo artist?

Holly Danesi:We prepare for our clients, like our drawings the night before. I mean, sometimes a little earlier depending on how busy we are. So we usually have that ready. So, you know, when the client comes in, they look at the drawing, they give it a thumbs up or they say they wanna make some alterations to it. And then, yeah, I set up and we go. You know, most days I do only one client per day so that I have like all of my focus and attention on that. But this is, you know, I've been tattooing a long time. So in the past I would walk-ins and it would be sort of like maybe one a day, maybe three, maybe four, sometimes six, who knows, you know? But now it's just like I'm older and I don't have the stamina to continue all day long. So I just do, you know, one a day.

Dan:Typically how long is that? The tattoos that you do when it's one a day, is it like a one hour or a four hour? What is that typically like?

Holly Danesi:I like to say four hours because there's preparation time involved and then there's, you know, breaks we wanna take and then, you know, bandaging, photographing, all that stuff. So I think four hours is a good, you know, idea.

Dan:And how about in a single moment we'll say, how long are you actually tattooing before you're changing colors maybe? Or I don't know if they have like different types of needles or, how long are you going like in an instant? Is it like kind of 15 minute bursts? What's that like?

Holly Danesi:I try to tackle it so that I'm finishing the outline and that can vary on how long that takes, you know, anywhere from 30 minutes to two hours really, could be longer. Depends on how detailed it is. And then we'll take a break. I put some bactine on people to give them a little numbing, you know, mercy. And then we'll continue from there. And then usually after that, I'll take another break after I do the black. And then if we're doing color, we'll complete that last.

Dan:All right. So talking about the prep work a little bit, how often do people come in and say, and again, I know very little about this whole process, but do you have like a book of art that they go through that they want, you know, this thing, or is it more like they come in with specific art, you design stuff? What is that part like?

Holly Danesi:For me, I'm usually doing things custom for people. So I have, you know, I've drawn their idea specifically for them, but many artists do have books of work that you can just walk in and say, hey, I want to get a tattoo by you. They'll leave a deposit so that it reserves their space so that you're going to be there for them and you won't be distracted by other people. And yeah, they can come in and just choose a design and go from there. Some people are just not, you know, spontaneous. So they don't want to just pick something at that moment. Some people really want to have their idea like well in advance. And so I feel like the way it's gone over the years is it's really transitioned more to custom work.

Dan:And how common is that, do you think, where someone starts out maybe doing a place where they just take in walk-ins, we'll say, versus transitioning to more of that? That's special to you.

Holly Danesi:It used to be standard, 100% standard. I started tattooing before social media existed. So there was no way really for people to know who you were or what you did. So it was all walk-in, all walk-in, you know. And then once you have rapport with somebody who had walked in, then maybe in the future, they would say, well, I want this and you could do something custom. now it's because of Instagram and all the other social medias, people can hone in on what you like to do and they can ask you, come to you specifically for something. So I feel like the walk-in businesses shrunk tremendously. Like I work in a shop that, of course, we do take walk-ins but it's mostly appointments just by nature of what people want. And I've done, see, what is it? It's August. I've probably done like four walk-ins all year.

Dan:Yeah, and I gotta say too, we were emailing a little back and forth and again, the Instagram photos you have are just amazing. I mean, just the quality of the and the variations, just amazing

Holly Danesi:Thank you.

Holly Danesi:It has varied over the years. Right now I have time within a week or two. It depends on the season. During the spring, it seems to be a little bit more busy. Summer's usually slow. In Philadelphia, specifically, everybody is at the shore all summer long. So if you're looking to get in quickly for a custom design, come in during the summer. It is usually the slowest. So yeah, come in in the summer. We'll have time for you.

Dan:If I remember correctly from speaking with people, do you have to like stay out of the sun after you get a tattoo or what is that like?

Holly Danesi:Yeah, I mean, you have to at least keep the tattoo out of the sun. If you want to put the rest of your body in the sun, that's totally fine. But yeah, you got to cover it up. You got to keep it out of the sun. You can't soak it for at least, depends on the healing method. We have new healing methods that is fast and you could probably get away with going in water in like a week if it's a fast heal. But yeah, typically it's two weeks, you want to stay out. And then after the tattoo's healed, you can put sunscreen on it, but when it's fresh, you can't. So you got to just keep it covered.

Dan:Let's talk about how you got started in this industry.

Holly Danesi:It's a long process. I mean, I got interested in tattoos when I was in high school in the 90s. I went to get a tattoo and I was under age. So me and two friends went to this guy who's like a biker, you know, didn't check ID kind of thing and three of us got tattooed and it was bad. It was like a really bad tattoo. In that moment, I was like, I could do better than this. I was already an artist, but like, you know, I was like, this is really cool process. I love things that are processes. I'm not really like, I would say a fine artist. I'm more of like a trades person, craft person, artist and tattooing is one of those things that I was drawn to because I mean, I was a seamstress at that time too. I worked as a seamstress. So I've always been into trades that like also really have some use to them, I guess, as well as art. So yeah, I walked away from that kind of being like, man, I could do this, but at the time in the 90s, I didn't know of women doing it. So I just kind of put it out of my mind. And then when I turned 18, I moved to San Francisco and there I was kind of exposed to a really different caliber of artist and there were women doing it there. And that was when I started thinking like, maybe this is something I could do. And then I moved to Oakland. I was living in a warehouse actually with like 30 people. And one of my roommates had some tattoo equipment and she was trying to learn. And we had another roommate who had a lot of tattoos he had gotten back in the day and he hated them all, wanted them all covered up. So he was like, go ahead, just work on this, cover all these up and do that. So she was practicing on him and I got in there and I was like, can I try it too? And he was like, yeah, of course. So then I tried it and I was like, that's it, this is what I'm doing. So I was really fortunate to somehow get my hands on some stuff and started tattooing my housemates. I had all these punk rockers that didn't care at all about the quality of the tattoos. They were getting them for free and they were just like awesome. So, but I was like, I knew enough about it from being tattooed by different artists and being in shops, different times, knowing enough about sterilization. So at least I had an autoclave and knew about cross-contamination and stuff. So I didn't mess anybody up medically. Definitely some not so great tattoos out there, sorry guys. But yeah, that's how I started at first. And then that's just like a baby step, but you have to find a mentor. You can't just learn this on your own. You'll end up, you're in a vacuum or whatever and you'll never progress and you'll never get called out or questioned or challenged. So then it went on to me looking for an apprenticeship. It was really hard for me to find an apprenticeship and I mean, as it should be. It's not a thing that's just like, I'm just gonna walk through a tattoo shop and they're gonna want to teach me. You have to show commitment. You have to show love, a passion. It's not for everyone and it shouldn't be. It's kind of like, if you don't belong, don't be long kind of thing. So I was just in no way, shape or form like able to get an apprenticeship. Plus I had two children already. I was a young mom. So that was another thing. Everyone's like, no, like you're not gonna do this. Like you have kids, you're crazy. But I was really determined. And after I moved back to the East coast, I started looking for apprenticeships here and I got one. My first one was in Norristown actually. I worked at Norristown Tattoo Company. They didn't really want to take me on as an apprentice because I was a mom. And they just really were like, this is gonna be too much work. It's unpaid. They're like, how are you going to be here? 35, 40 hours a week, not being paid. It's an hour from where you live. And I was just like, I'm gonna make it work. I will make it work and I will prove to you. So I did, I did that. And I lasted for like two years there and then went to another place and then went to another place and then went to another place, another place, another place. And now I'm at this shop that I've been at for eight years. But along the way, I've had different people that I consider mentors and they taught me a lot.

Dan:So many, so many great things you're talking about here. Okay, so I'm gonna jump back to the apprenticeship because I had no idea that an apprenticeship would be tied to being a tattoo artist. That's really cool. So you said it was like 35, 40 hours a week unpaid. How long do they typically last? Is it a year, six months? What is that? Is there a typical?

Holly Danesi:There is a typical, I would say. I was there six months before I started using the machine. So I was there for six months cleaning, scrubbing tubes, setting up appointments for people cleaning up their stations, setting their stations up, doing drawings for them, tracing things, doing all that stuff, answering the phone, all the things. After six months, they were like,Okay, now you can do tiny tattoos, no larger than the size of a business card.And that's what I did. I didn't pay for my apprenticeship, which is kind of like nowadays, I think some people do take money to apprentice you, but traditionally you don't pay for an apprenticeship. But what I would do is every one of those little tattoos I did, I get $20 from the person. And that would go into an envelope. And after, I don't know, another six months, I had that envelope of money and gave that to my mentor. That was the payment. Also to supplement my income and my sustainability, I learned how to pierce as well. So I did pierce. And that helped.

Dan:How common is that if someone does tattoos, they also will pierce? Is that pretty uncommon?

Holly Danesi:It's uncommon. Back in the early 2000s, it was definitely more common to be both a tattoo artist and a piercer.

Dan:Again, going back to as little as I know about tattoos. I understand that at least in some cases, there might be a stencil or something like that. So how important is it for the tattoo artist to be a good artist if they're using a stencil kind of thing? Can you talk about that?

Holly Danesi:Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, first of all, the stencil is something that you drew, right? Like it's not provided to you by some other artists. So you have to be able to draw. The stencil is there primarily. I mean, you don't have to use a stencil. You could draw directly on someone's skin with markers if you want. The stencil is there because it's kind of a technical thing. But like when you stretch the skin, it distorts. You have to stretch the skin to tattoo. So say you have a circle in the stencil. When you stretch the skin, it's not a circle anymore. But you're following that line so that when it goes back to unstretched, it's a circle. So you can imagine if you put a stencil on someone's ribcage while they're like at rest and, you know, when they stretch out to tattoo, it's getting huge and distorted. And if you don't have the stencil there, it's going to look sandwiched, you know. So you have to have the stencil unless you're drawing it on. But either way, you do it when the body is at rest in normal position so that it's still accurate.

Dan:That's so cool. That's so fascinating. OK. So what about formal education as an artist? How important is it to be formally educated?

Holly Danesi:I don't think formal education as an artist is important. But I do think it is helpful to have access to studio space and resources. So I did some art classes at SF State and I did art classes at, what was it called, University of Arts in San Francisco. So I had access to studios and that was cool. You know, to have structure where it's like you have to create these things and there's no like, maybe I will, maybe I won't, you know. It can help provide you with discipline too. But I mean, being an artist and being a tattooer, are also very different. You have an artist, you can do whatever you want. There's no kind of like restrictions on what would make good art. But what would make a good tattoo? There are very much restrictions on. There's some people try to do whatever they want as tattoos and go ahead and try. But like the way they age, they're on a living being. It is not the same as paper. It is not the same as a canvas. It will morph. It changes. It fades. It, you know, so there are try and true rules to tattooing that do not apply to art. The other thing is bedside manner. I mean, this is not you're not doodling on a piece of paper. You are inflicting discomfort on a living person. And you have to be a good person. You have to be a kind person. You have to be empathetic to a degree, at least. And it's hard sometimes because you really want to do. Maybe you want to keep tweaking it or keep working on it, or you're not like really yet ready and they're just done, you know. And you have to be a nice person and chat, have some banter and stuff like that. It's not like normal just sitting in your studio alone painting on paper or a canvas.

Dan:What you said just made me think of this. So so being a creative myself and knowing other artists, it's very easy to fall into the trap of I just I just need to do this one more thing. I need to do this one more thing. Five more minutes, one more day, whatever the time frame is. You get tattoo artists don't necessarily have that luxury. Do you find that difficult where it's like, I can make this just a little bit better if or is it like, no, it's it's good enough. It's where it should be.

Holly Danesi:It's very difficult. Especially because you're going to take a picture of it and look at it later. So, yeah, like it's very hard and people don't care. Usually they're like, it's good enough. Like stop, you know, and you're like, but I know I could be better. And I don't know. You have to I don't know. I try to keep using the bactine and try to make people as comfortable as possible to make it through. And, you know, it's painful. So what are you gonna do?

Dan:Before you talked about as many women being in the industry, has that changed over time or is that what's that like?

Holly Danesi:Drastically. Yeah, drastically. Yeah, when I started, I feel like I could I could think on maybe my two hands, the amount of female tattooers that I knew of. Now I have no idea. I mean, it's I feel like it's 50 50, maybe. I don't know. I haven't looked into statistics about it, but so many more. Yeah.

Dan:Here's kind of a random question for you. So I was speaking with Christopher Stockwell. He was a prosecutor out in the in the West. I want to say Oregon. I don't know if that's right or not. But he had several tattoos that I could see while we were talking. And one thing I asked him, I said, you know, you being a lawyer, when you go into the courtroom, do you have to be covered up? Is there a stigma associated with that at your in your profession? So my question for you, what kind of like I would say white collar people do you have coming or can you even tell? Like, what is that stigma like, at least in the Philadelphia area? Is there any that you can tell?

Holly Danesi:I don't think so. Philadelphia is very heavily tattooed city. I don't see much of a stigma. Tattoo people from all kinds of professions. I think the only stigma I notice would be with family people who feel like their family members wouldn't be accepting.

Dan:Similarly, when I was talking to again, Christopher Stockwell, I was saying, like in this general area, I didn't really perceive that at all. But I have friends that live farther west near Harrisburg. And where my one friend works, it's like, no, you cannot be showing any ink in our in our place of employment at all. So it's just it's interesting seeing that deviation among geographical locations.

Holly Danesi:Definitely.

Dan:Kind of going back with that a little bit. Do you get any kind of stigma when you meet people and they say, oh, invariably, what do you do for a living? And you come out with I'm a tattoo artist. Do people are they like, oh, that's cool. Or it's like, oh, like what is what is the typical reaction to that?

Holly Danesi:I try not to tell people because I don't I don't want a reaction. You know, I'd rather people, I don't know, just get to know me for and not know that stuff. But yeah, usually people are like, oh, that's really cool.

Dan:I got to say what I told I told several people ahead of time that I was going to be speaking with you today and I was referring to you as a tattoo artist. And every action I got was like, that is awesome like the wide eyes and everything.

Holly Danesi:So yeah, that's usually the reaction I get.

Dan:If someone wants to get started as a tattoo artist now in 2025, what is the best way to get started?

Holly Danesi:Oh, look for a mentor.

Dan:How can they do that? What's the best way to do that?

Holly Danesi:Get tattoos. If you're not getting tattoos, why are you here? If you don't like tattooing, why would you want to be a tattoo artist? It doesn't make any sense. If you're trying to come into tattooing to make money and that's your only interest, you are mistaken. You are very mistaken. It's very hard. It's not easy money. It's not always good money. There's no social there's no security in it. There's no retirement. There's no benefits. There's no paid anything. You work all the time, all the time. And it's all on you. There's nobody feeding you clients. It's like you have to love tattooing and you have to love hanging out with people and being in a tattoo shop. You know, if you're not comfortable being in one and you don't want to be around other people, it's probably not for you.

Dan:That is good information. Okay, so going along with that. I spoke with several different people in various industries and we talked about the responsibility of that person bringing in clients. And it sounds like similarly, are you responsible for bringing in your own clients to tattoo or kind of a mix? What's that like?

Holly Danesi:Now I am for sure. At points in the past I have worked at shops that were really walk-in based. So they came in and it was kind of like, all right, who's next? Who's up? Who's up? You're up? Okay, you're going to do this tattoo. Somebody basically works at the door and as clients come in, they're like, it's this person's turn to do the tattoo. So then I do it, or they do it. We take turns doing them. But no, now it's like, I got to hustle. I got to meet people. I have to make clients. It's all on me.

Dan:Okay, and you kind of alluded this earlier. What are hours typically like? Are they kind of all over the map? Is it like, you know, 8am to midnight? What is typical?

Holly Danesi:For me, I get into the shop at like 10:30 or 11. And I'm usually out of the shop around 6:30. But some people come in at two or three and they leave at eight or nine or 10. I've worked places where I worked from 12 to midnight. And as subcontractor, you're a subcontractor. So technically, there's not like hours that people can tell you you have to work. But typically, there's shop hours that everybody wants to be there at the same time, just because it's more fun. So yeah, we're all usually there between 11 and seven, generally.

Dan:So much really, really good information that you're sharing with us. I really appreciate it. Holly, unfortunately, I'm running a little short on time. But one thing I like to do whenever I'm speaking with someone, I like to give them the opportunity to talk about a project they're working on, a cause they believe in more about their business. So if there's something you'd like to discuss, the floor is yours.

Holly Danesi:Well, yeah, I mean, come to the shop, Black Vulture Gallery in Fishtown. We have wonderful artists, great guys there. We have a lot of guest artists coming through all the time as well. And also, I want to talk about a side project that I do about monarch butterfly preservation. They're facing endangerment. So I've been raising monarchs and releasing them this year. And also on my website, you can see the taxidermy I do, which is all butterfly taxidermy. So yeah, check that out.

Dan:I'll make sure I get all those links from you. I'll put them in the show notes. They'll be in the description. They'll be all over the place. So when people are trying to find you and find more information about this, they can easily do that.

Holly Danesi:Thank you.

Dan:Holly, it's been absolutely awesome having you on Time We Discuss and we learned what it's like to be a tattoo artist.

Holly Danesi:Thanks for having me.