Time We Discuss: Working in Product Design and the Board Game Industry (Dougal Grimes)

Transcription

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Dougal Grimes: In Scotland, we're always pushing people to go towards the energy industry. It was always about engineering. You've got to go and join this oil company and all this stuff. And I was like, no, I want to design toys and games.

Dan: Today on Time We Discuss, I want to welcome Dougal Grimes and it's time we discuss what it's like working with product design. Dougal, thank you for joining me today.

Dougal: Thank you for having me. This is great, exciting.

Dan: Absolutely, so this is going to be cool. We spoke, I spoke with Devon Lucas about almost two years ago at this point. She was on the show and she talked about board game design and writing for it, really, really cool. We're going to kind of pick up probably where she left off in a way. So let's talk about it. Product design, games, wherever you want to take us. Talk to me about product design.

Dougal: When I was about 17, I was going to university. It's actually interesting because when I left school, I really did want to go into product design because I was good at art, engineering, those types of subjects. I saw it as like a combination of all of them. But my brother, oldest brother was like, "You know what," this is like two year 2000. He was like, "You should really look into AI. That's going to be a big thing in the future." So I did actually study AI and computer science at Edinburgh University for two years, which I absolutely hated. I could not do any of the like C,++ Prolog, all that. So I went back to drawing board and I went to study product design engineering at Strathclyde University in Glasgow. A little bit in hindsight, I maybe should have stuck in with the AI side of things, but I've had a good journey so far. So I studied product design engineering at Strathclyde University in Glasgow in Scotland.

Dan: How important, we're going to stick with education for a second, this is cool. How important for product design is art, is engineering? As far as like going to a university and getting formal training, how important is that, do you think?

Dougal: It's fairly important. I think that product design itself is quite a broad subject of design, like industrial design, which relates to the product, the aesthetics and things like that. And product design engineering, which I studied was also the other side, which is kind of mechanical engineering, which is more about obviously the function processes, engineering around it. But it was interesting at university, it did it for four years and Strathclyde University was kind of, it was interesting how they approached it. They actually had a lot more entrepreneurship classes built into it. So it was around product design itself, but then also the business side of things, which really got me interested in terms of the marketing of products and particularly the direction I started going, which was toys and games. So that started like to happen when I was at university, thinking about what direction I was going to go in.

Dan: So you went to school, you got your four year degree or however long you were there. What happened after that professionally? How did you get your foot in the door right out of school?

Dougal: A lot of the people in Scotland were always, especially the lecturers and tutors in Scotland were always pushing people to go towards the energy industry. It was always about engineering, you've got to go and join this oil company and all this stuff. And I was like, no, I want to design toys and games. So I designed it, especially for a couple of my classes, I was designing like toy lamps and things like that. They always got horrible marks. And then at the end, I was like, there must be a way in which I can make a career out going into toys and games. So I did this kind of process whereby I looked at a bunch of different things and I mapped out one of the processes was looking up a coming toy and game designer. And effectively it was look at the top companies in there. So it was Hasbro, Mattel, Lego. And if you can reach out to people that are there, interview them, talk to them, also look at what jobs are going on. And it sounds very like obvious, but when you're at that junction, you're like, how do I break into this? And it just so happened that Hasbro, who had a London office, were doing a tour around universities and they were doing a graduate training program in marketing and they weren't coming to Scotland. So they actually went to Nottingham and I took the train down. And just by chance, I got there late, met with the director of marketing for the UK, who gave me a lift back to the train station. We talked about Led Zeppelin the whole time, but he was like, look, it's a marketing graduate training program. You come from design, but I think you should apply anyway. So I ended up applying and getting into their London office, which is the European headquarters, through a kind of marketing graduate training program. It was effectively like a six month rotation. So I did everything from like field sales. I worked in a retail store for a while, worked in the distribution center, repackaging Star Wars helmets, which Hasbro, I can remember it was 2008. So it was one of the movies that were repackaging or maybe for the animated series, everything hands on. And then after that, there was like, you could choose either to go into sales or marketing. So I went into games marketing in the UK office after that.

Dan: You started working in games marketing.

Dougal: Yeah.

Dan: How did that all work out? How long were you doing that? Where did you move from there? What were some of the things you liked, disliked about it? Talk to me about marketing games.

Dougal: The thing I love about, well, there's a couple of things. I love board games, tabletop games, for the pure reason that I love any product that gets people together. And especially now it's very relevant with board games for things to be able to switch off from devices, connect people. We've played a lot, I've got five older brothers and we played a lot of games as kids. Everything from Warhammer to video games, everything in between. And so that is still something we do today. And it's something that's built in. So for me, I like games just purely as a product. It's something the world needs and it's very honorable. And I think also that it can be sustainable in some ways, particularly if you're making card games and things like that. So it's actually something that I think is very valuable. But what I like about the industry is it's so fast moving. Like if you think about it, the toy and game industry is actually a fashion industry where every year there has to be something new. Yes, you get the same things like they're gonna release another monopoly, they're gonna release another this. But there's always gonna be the new games that come around. And then of course you've got the layer on with new movies that are coming through. So there's gonna be product that's based on that. So what I like about it is every year there's this cycle that goes on of newness, trying to figure out how to, especially when we talk about the marketing side of things, like how to promote this, how to expand upon it. Every year was just this kind of cycle and it gets quite, it's exciting because it's always a bit of a chase for new. And that's one of the things I've always loved is the novelty factor of things.

Dan: Let's talk about the industry now, the physical board games now, because there's a couple of different things. There's obviously a lot of electronic stuff. You have your apps, your digital games and everything like that. But then you also have some Gen Xers that are starting to hold onto or go back to some of the things of the past. So what is the tabletop industry like now? Is it growing? Is it declining? Is it stable? What's the industry itself like?

Dougal: It's been steadily in growth. It's had some, let's say like some growth parts and then some declines. Obviously probably the most recent one being during the pandemic. Board games over my career and then looking into the past have definitely performed better during times of recession. There's something that is relatively good cost value. You can get repeat play out of it. But then of course you're in the pandemic, a lot of people stuck at home looking for things to do jigsaw puzzles, board games provided that. So there was a huge boom during the pandemic which then cooled off afterwards. But I would say that over time the adoption of board games has been steadily growing. And that's interesting. It's a good question. And there's a couple of different ways in which I can answer this. A lot of people are like, "Oh, well kids nowadays, they just wanna play video games." Yes, that's true. But interestingly, whenever there's a technological innovation within digital, it actually helps hand in hand with games. So I'll give you a good example. In 2007, when the iPhone came out, obviously with the iPhone came a lot of casual games. You had things like Candy Crush and all these types of games. What happened is a lot of people felt that, "Oh yeah, this is gonna be a new way of gaming and it's gonna take away from board games." You had these two things that happened. You had more people playing games, casual games, and then deeming themselves as a gamer. They were playing these and going, "Ah, I like games, I have fun." And then they were more generally disposed to then playing a game and having a game night. And then you have this sort of corollary effect of screen time and people conscious of how much time, everyone does this, you go down a rabbit hole on YouTube or Instagram, and especially young parents or parents now realizing we want our kids to not be on screens. So then you have this kind of like really interesting balance of people who are now more playing games. And then you also have a balance of people who want to switch off from devices and board games have provided a really good face-to-face connection. And I think over the past 10 years, it's just exploded. And I could talk to you for a long time about that, but I'll pause there. But I think it's been a really good confluence of more of nerd culture, geek culture, people growing up with games, more people wanting to switch off, more people wanting to connect face-to-face. So it's been an amazing past 20 years of growth within the industry.

Dan: A lot of times before I go to bed, I'm usually the last one to go to bed here. And a lot of times it is not uncommon for me to whip out a deck of cards and I'll do like an old school Freecell game. And I'll go, I'll play one round of Freecell, I put it away and I go to bed. That's like my routine right now.

Dougal: Nice, nice.

Dan: So talk about getting away from the screen going back to the physical. That's kind of like the one thing that I do.

Dougal: Yeah, that's great. Good routine.

Dan: Yes, so if someone wants to get into product design, what do you think is the best way for them to get into this? Is engineering a good way? Is art the better way? Does it matter? Is it more about just getting your foot in the door somehow, any way? What is the best way for someone to try to get their way into this industry?

Dougal: It's a great question. I think there's a couple of routes. Obviously the route that I took was, I studied with it, college or university, studying behind some of the principles from that. And that not only affords you like, especially understanding some of the tools. And at the time I was doing it, there was things like CAD was growing, Rhino 3D and things. So understanding some of the tools, but the methodologies and learning those. I would say there's probably just as equal an opportunity to be an apprentice and work for a company that is able to instill those abilities in you. So doing work experience, understanding the tools, digital tools or otherwise physical prototyping and understanding the methodologies that go into developing a product. So I think there's a few different ways. And I think now a lot of employers in this area, the area that I'm in, of course, where I work for companies such as Hasbro, mass markets, manufacturers of toys and games, they have design teams. And so they are looking to employ people that have that training, especially if they're new or have had experience in doing that and helping build out products to the specifications you'd need to do to send it to a factory to get it made and things like that. But so there's probably two paths of, in terms of training, which is your academic way, I would say that they're probably most likely as well is ways where you could do it on the job and understand it and do the training and then go into it through that. But then in terms of like product design of, let's say commercial products, I'm in the toy and game industry, there's plenty of other industries, pet industry, homewares, fashion, all these different types of products that go with it. Either they will work with, they'll have their own internal design teams which they'll employ for, or there might be external agencies of which will just be product design specific that they will employ and work with as well. So there's a couple of different routes that you can go.

Dan: Sticking with the game industry. One thing you mentioned, I'm so glad you mentioned this, you talked about teams. So when, so I'm in the web world, so I, you know, my team has designers, frontend developers, backend developers, I might have a Share Point developer, I might have support person. When you have these teams that are doing product design, are they each person, do they have their own specialty or is it they're all, you know, quote unquote equals? How does that team actually break out?

Dougal: Depends on, let's, I'll give an example of my experience. I'll use the time I was at Hasbro, I'd moved to the US, I was managing the party games business as the director of product design. Now in our team, we had different specialists as product designers, game designers, copywriters. So if you take, for example, what we were making was, let's just say for example, a game like Trivial Pursuit, box, cards, the content. There are new games that could be a trivia related where you need a product designer to think about, okay, is there an interesting timer in this? So we're doing a different type of sand timer, an electronic timer, that needs to be designed. Or the difference in the game could be, you come from a creative writing background and you're designing the game through the rules and the writing as well. And then there was another gentleman on our team who'd come from the Rhode Island School of Design. He'd come from fabrics and fashion. So he was, you know, very skilled in terms of plush and making fabrics and sewing them together. And there was a few games that, I don't know if they made it to market, but it might've had a wearable on it. There was one that we had actually made it really, so it was called Awkward Hugs. And it was like a belt that you put around two of you and you had to answer a question and get them right at the same time to be unlocked from it. So it was an interesting concept, but he was great for it because he was a product designer, but he specialized in the area of fabrication and making those. So his abilities really led towards that. Whereas you have games where there is, might be a product designer, but they're also a creative writer, they were led more into the rule set and creating something that was around the content as well. So within a team, within my industry, you can have a lot of different style of product designers that have different specialties that you can use to create something.

Dan: It's funny, I am 99% sure that Devon also mentioned Awkward Hugs, and I'm pretty sure she said that was one of her favorite games. I can't remember her role if she was actually involved with it or is a game she stumbled across and just really enjoyed it, but I'm like 99% sure we spoke about that.

Dougal: Yeah, yeah, I think that was one of her favorites. She definitely worked on that one.

Dan: You talked about different locations. I know you're in Brooklyn. You talked about London. How important is it if someone wants to get into it? And again, we're gonna stick with the game industry, okay? How important is it for someone to be in a major metropolis area? Can they be anywhere and work remotely? What are the limitations geographically speaking?

Dougal: It depends on obviously what, if we think about product design and developing products, it depends on what it is you're making. And I would say that especially now post pandemic, it's more often that people as teams can be remote or a hybrid, which is fantastic. People can work from home, balance their work life together. A lot of the time, if we take like toys and games, a lot of what we do of course is developing product that is for people to be together. And so for a lot of the teams, if you're testing, you're looking at prototypes, you need to be together in terms of a physical location and testing these products. You can do this. You can send around products and things, but I would say a hybrid model is probably best. Although it depends on what your function is because you could be entirely remote if say you were just a copywriter. Devon, who now does that freelance, she can just be based at home. We can send her a brief and she can just generate the content. So depending on what you are doing, it can be flexible in that regard. Now to the question about major metropolitan areas, of course, like a lot of the companies will probably have a base or a hub around these major areas. And they'll do so because they want to try and capture talent. It's a hub that's easy for people to visit. There'll be other companies, there are partners that will be there. And so there is a general overspill from that as to why it's important to be in those areas. But I would say it's starting to become less so, particularly again, because of remote working and hybrid working within the pandemic. For me, coming to the US, the reason for that was because the companies that I worked for and potentially could have worked for, like the Hasbro, Mattels, they have their big global hubs within the United States. The other choice for me would be maybe to work in Hong Kong or China where a lot of the manufacturing happens. And that could be another, a decision if I was going closer to where the manufacturing was. But for me, like being based in the US and being able to get around here offered me for my career the most opportunity in terms of being where the decision makers are in my industry.

Dan: I don't know if you know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. How difficult is it for someone to get into this industry? Again, specifically with the game industry. Is it, are there more applicants than job openings? Generally speaking, is it saturated? If I want to get into this industry now, I want to go to school for this now. Is it a pipe dream? What's it like?

Dougal: It's not a pipe dream. It's interesting because part of one of my roles was working with external creatives we call inventors, but they can be product designers, whatever, and working with them to license their ideas and bring them into companies. And one of the big things we always had was a challenge of bringing in new designers and people interested in the industry. One of the funny things is that toys and games, fun industry, everyone gets it. Yeah, it's very fun. But for people who are in design, they, a lot of the challenges in our industry were they wanted to work for Apple. They wanted to work for Nike. You know, there was other industries that were a big draw as well. And our industry, I'd say there is a lot of opportunities. There is a lot of companies that employ. There's the mass market companies, like Hasbro's Mattels. There's this sort of mid-tier specialty. There's also the root now, particularly because of crowdfunding, AI tools, direct to consumer. A lot of people, if you're designing, you can actually create something, particularly like a card game, for example. Very low complexity. You're able to get it manufactured yourself. You can maybe even get it crowdfunded. You can invest in your first run. You can sell it yourself. You can set up a Shopify and do that. And you can market yourself. And so there's roots now that are interesting for designers to actually kind of go their own path, especially with things, yes, you could do it with a highly complex item, but you're gonna have to invest more in the inventory of making of it. But I would say across our industry, it is going through a lot of changes, as every industry is, especially 2025 was challenging with things like tariffs. But the knock-on effect of that is everything will kind of evolve. And many companies still are always looking for opportunities to bring on board, new designers in any discipline, new marketers, sales. It happens across the board.

Dan: Different jobs have different things that you have to do that are kind of more of like the grunt work of it. So if I'm a web designer, maybe I have to go through the site and make sure all of our links are still working properly. We don't have any broken links or anything like that. What is something that's a part of your job that is critical to your job, or critical to the job of a game designer, that if a person doesn't like doing this thing, then this job is not for them? There's multiple different categories of games.

Dougal: I'm bundling everything in, but there's multiple different categories. One of the things about games is the iterative process and testing. Which it's never done. And so you have to stop it at some point, as with anything. But take, for example, at the moment, we just launched a developing a game with a partner of mine for a content creator. It's on Kickstarter. And there's trivia questions involved. And so when you write content, you have to test it. So you incessantly always have to be testing, organizing groups. And now it sounds easy to do. And a lot of people are like, "Yeah, you can use AI for this." And it's like, no, you don't use it for that. You have to sit around, organize a group of four people to six people who will play the game with you. And again, it sounds like, "Oh yeah, that's so easy to do." It's not easy to do. Like to get those times, to get people to sit down and play a prototype game with you to test trivia questions and go through it. There's a lot of the process, which is just iterative and doing that. And making changes and being vulnerable in the design to throw things out and change them and things. So there's a lot of that process going through. So that's one part of it, particularly when it comes to games with content, the rules and things. You have to keep going, keep testing, keep going, keep testing and redoing it. And then at one point, we can't do it anymore because we have to send it to the factory to get made.

Dan: It's very similar to that with web development. Same idea, you're testing over and over and over again. You're trying to break it. So it breaks internally. And so your customers aren't breaking it or something like that. I know with video game development is very similar. You try to break the game. So it doesn't ship with these, it still does, but with as little broken parts as possible. Dougal, I feel like we just barely scratched the surface here. I think there was so much more to unpack, but unfortunately I am running out of time. Before I hand the floor over to you, I want to take a second and thank Devon Lucas for introducing us. Devon was in episode 18 as a board game writer. Everyone, please go check that out. Link is in the description. Dougal, this is the part of the show where I'd like to offer my guests the opportunity to talk about a project they're working on, a cause they believe in, more about their business. So if there's something specific you'd like to discuss, the floor is yours.

Dougal: I don't want to use this time to do self promotion. I think that one thing a cause to believe in is for people to be playing games, especially this will be shown after the holiday period, but even into the next year, any time, if people playing card games, board games, whatever it is to connect with others, and use that as a tool for connection, which is one of my favorite things to do. I've used it in my personal life, like growing up with brothers, we still use it in playing them. And I think tabletop games, board games, card games, however you frame it, is a great way of switching off and getting back to tactile face-to-face, and role play, having fun, is a great way to do it. So that's the one thing I'd ask is, people just keep pushing that, because one thing I've learned, and as I explained earlier, like the more people that play and enjoy and have fun, the more people end up playing and having fun. And that's, it sounds very cliche, but it's one thing I've found true, both in the marketplace, and also in seeing at home. When people play, or a company releases a great game, it doesn't mean it's the rising tide, raises all ships, more people play it. So to keep doing that, and keep spreading it, is great. And that's how we're gonna keep connecting with each other, I guess.

Dan: Dougal, that is really cool, and I'm gonna encourage everyone to do that. Go and check out a game, get some friends together, and have some good old-fashioned board game fun, or something like that. I will put your information in the show notes, it'll be in the description, so if people are trying to find more information about you, they can easily do that. Dougal, it's been awesome having you all on Time We Discuss, and we learned what it's like doing product design in the game industry.

Dougal: Thank you, great to be here.