What It’s Really Like to Be a Ballet Dancer and Teacher (Jena Kocsis)

Transcription

(Music)

Jena Kocsis: Beyond that, as we age, ballet is one of the best movements that you can do for an aging body, we're stretching, we're strengthening,

Dan: Today on Time We Discuss, I want to welcome Jena Kocsis and it's time to discuss what it's like being a ballerina and teaching ballet. Jena, thank you for joining me today.

Jena Kocsis: Thank you so much for having me today. It's a pleasure to be here.

Dan: Oh, this is gonna be awesome. Like I said before we started recording, I know next to nothing about ballet. I love speaking to people where it's a career that I know nothing about. It's a lot of fun for me. I don't know how much fun it is for my viewers and listeners, but for me, it's a lot of fun. So let's start at the beginning. I assume in order to teach ballet, you need to be involved in ballet at some point. So take us back. How did you get started in ballet?

Jena Kocsis: I have been dancing pretty much my entire life. I was a young child. I saw a performance on television, most likely a PBS special back in the day. And I told my parents that that's what I wanted to do. And I sort of never looked back, I started dancing and it very quickly became the passion, when there was a choice in our childhood of activities, it was always always ballet. And for me, it was always the process of working through and gaining experience and what was the next performance. And then I sort of fell into my performing career, because that was the next step that was the next part of the process. So I took lessons at a local studio up and through middle school, my family moved at that time into a bigger city. And then I joined a ballet conservatory. And that just kind of fed my love of it. And my mentor from there guided me through the audition process. And then I transitioned from that post high school into performing career.

Dan: Wow, okay. So you didn't necessarily go to to college for dance. At that point in time, you left high school, you graduate high school, and then you joined a conservatory. Is that when you joined?

Jena Kocsis: No, I joined a conservatory in high school. So that was my high school years. So that it was pretty rigorous program. I was dancing six days a week. We performed three times a year. Yeah, it was a pretty pretty rigorous program through high school at that point. I did several summer programs away with with various programs, I moved to New York temporarily. But in the dance world, there is a big push for young artists where you can transition out of the high school and become a working artist right away at a young age. So I did not transition to university at that time. So there is definitely a path that that can happen. And you can then go on and become a working artist after the university years. And there's definitely certainly degrees in dance. I just chose the working path first and went back to school years later.

Dan: Okay, okay. So you mentioned that when you were younger, you moved to a city. And I want to hang on that for a second. How important is if someone wants to make a career in ballet, how important is it for them to be in a larger city like, like New York, like Philadelphia, like pick your pick your large city? How important is that?

Jena Kocsis: think in training, it's not necessarily as super important. Obviously, those larger cities hold your larger ballet companies. And they're going to have that experience. But there are a lot of smaller regional companies and some wonderful schools throughout the country that have the ability to take a student and train them to a level where they could go out and make this their career. So on one hand, I feel like it's important to be close enough to a city to experience some of the performances that come through those cities and be exposed to those things that the larger cities offer. You know, a small rural town just doesn't have the pull to bring something in. But really, it's more important to find a teacher that has the ability to bring you to where you want to go. And so oftentimes, you'll see those smaller schools, they might not have the classes or the education in the teaching staff. And that's when they start to look if they want to have a performance career. And oftentimes, if you're within driving distance, I know lots of people that drove an hour or more to get into city, you know, larger, larger towns or cities to have that experience, just because you need people.

Dan: Okay. I'm speaking with Brian Wolbert. He is a performer, a musician. And he actually said something very similar that you said, where, from a performance perspective, having the right teacher, and I use that in air quotes, that the right teacher is more important than say, like, going to a university for a performance degree or something like that. So it's neat hearing when different things kind of resonate together like that. I really really like that. One thing I want to ask you, so when you when you were doing this professionally, talk me through a typical week, what are what are the practices like? Before performance? Are you dancing every day for eight hours a day? What is that like?

Jena Kocsis: when that is your full time job, you would show up at usually nine o'clock in the morning, you'll have a company class. So you'll take a full class to keep yourself warm and practicing and you know, you still have to be it's just like musicians, you have to keep practicing your craft to get better. Same thing with dancers. So we would have it about an hour and a half class every day. And then you would go in and you would have rehearsals generally till about five o'clock at night. Now you may rehearsals that entire period. It depends on whatever you were cast in and what you were called for. Oftentimes, we would have breaks within the day for our own lunches or, you know, many of us were going to school at that time. So we'd be in the other room studying. But you would have a rehearsal block from about 10:30 in the morning till five o'clock at night. And depending on what ballet you were rehearsing and what you were cast in that would determine your schedule and which room you were in during that period of time. The closer you got to a show, the more likely you were dancing from nine to five, pretty much all day, because you know, we were running the ballets full out. When I say that I say we're in rehearsal from nine to five. Now obviously, if your part in the performance wasn't dancing at that moment, you're kind of waiting on the side. So you had some downtime. But yes, you were called all day. When I was in the larger companies, our rehearsal schedule, we usually had about three or four weeks between large performances. So we would be called in on our contract three weeks prior to the show, you have three weeks of full rehearsals. And then that fourth week was what we call tech week, where you're in the theater, and you're setting everything up, running things on stage, dress rehearsals, and then you open up for the public.

Dan: Now, what about downtime between shows? So you're you're doing a performance for whatever the show is. And then it ends and you're getting ready to move on to start the next different show different title, you know, that kind of thing. Is there a clean break of like, say a week of like kind of downtime before you get back into it? Is that like, no, no, no, the weekend comes, it's over Monday morning, we're back and working on the next one.

Jena Kocsis: It really depends on the company you're going to work for. So larger companies, there is actually usually no break, we're actually starting the next show while we're still in theater for the you know, so we'll be performing. And you would have, you know, say like Tuesday night is a non show night, you'd be in rehearsing for the next production. Because interspersed in there might be larger companies will tour. So you would be gone for a couple of weeks performing. And those schedules are a little different. Smaller companies, it was definitely a clean break, we might have some time off. A lot of times, we didn't have a whole week, it would be like, we're going to take a couple of days, we'll see you next week. And we'll move right in, because you're paid by a certain number of weeks in your contract. And so they start their season, and they've counted how many weeks you're going to work until their season ends. And usually, we would have holidays off once once our Nutcrackers would end, we'd have a week or two off, so we could at least spend some time with family. And then we'd be rolling right into the next show. But with that being said, your contract would be for a certain number of weeks. So we didn't work 52 weeks out of the year. Some companies do have that ability. But most of your smaller regional companies are only working for 20 or 30 weeks out of the year.

Dan: so let's hang on the contract for a second. Is that like a typical, I don't wanna say like employment contract where it's like you might you might work with any random company and your contractor for two years or something like that. Or is it more of like an artist contract where it's, you get maybe an entertainment attorney involved? What does that typically look like?

Jena Kocsis: So typically, it is, it's a employee contract like you would see anywhere else. It would just have a specific time limit to how you know, your employment time. So your contract would spell out how much you'd make each week, what they were offering you in in benefits, if any, in the dance world, you're usually offered shoes because you wear so many shoes to perform. So for both males and females, those would be spelled out in your contract. They would often spell out things that you could or couldn't do while you were on contract, like, you know, they would spell out don't go to the beach and walk barefoot don't, you know, all of those kinds of that don't go skiing don't go you so while you were on contract, those things were non negotiable. But we were employees under contract and you know, so they'd be shorter term contracts.

Dan: I'm glad you mentioned skiing and that sort of thing because that was actually the next thing I wanted to ask. So what about injury? Is there a time where where you got in specifically you in this instance, you got injured and or maybe burnt out and it was like, you know what, I don't know if I can do this anymore. And how did you kind of recover from that mentally and or physically?

Jena Kocsis: I've been very lucky I haven't had significant injuries that took me out. They were pretty much stereotypical dance. Breaking down injuries, or overuse type injuries. And in that case, you work. I was very lucky I was able to work with a physical therapist and a podiatrist and a doctor working through foot injuries at that time. And a whole program that they allow you to kind of walk through and you can take modified classes. Depending on the injury, you might be taken out of certain role depending on what that timeline was, it was really nice group for me, a group approach to how those things were handled on the physical end of it. On the mental end of it, it's very difficult to be sitting on the sidelines watching a show go through knowing that you had to step back and that mental health piece of it is a big piece, I personally think the dance world needs a little bit more work within because the dance world has this notorious outlook of just push, just push, just push. And we'll worry about it later. And when you can't do that, there's this mental aspect that you're failing not only yourself, but this whole group around you. And that I think is the biggest hurdle that if you can work through some of that mental stuff and realize that, you know, long term is better than the short term gain. We have some work in the dance world. In that aspect. There's some wonderful things going on and I have a friend that is in the mental health industry that is really trying to make it a difference and it's so important right now.

Dan: Kind of springboarding off of that as well. I was speaking with Glenda Benavides. She was a music performer, Grammy nominated, and I spoke with her earlier in the year, and we touched on body image in the music industry, and for pop stars and the challenges that could or could not go along with that. So from in the ballet world in the dance world, how has that changed over the past 10 years? Are there still pressures for specific body image types? What is that like?

Jena Kocsis: there are definitely some great changes that have come in the past decade in the dance world that were present, even when I was performing. But we still have a long road to walk. There's still work to be done. There, we did go through a period where there was this intense pressure, just like in the modeling industry to have these really tall, slender bodies in the performing arts. And that was a very prevalent thought process that they kind of fell into. And it's still to some extent, if you're working with with a certain group still there. But we've come a long way, I'm seeing a lot more acceptance of different body types, I'm seeing a lot more opportunities for those dancers to not just study dance, but to perform it as well. And it's not even just body image, the dance world has this really negative connotation for age limits also, where if you haven't started as a child, then it's a lost cause. And so that's one of my main missions is that, you know, it's not just for the five year olds getting started, you may not have a performing career in the same way as that American Valley Theatre principal dancer, but you can still enjoy the art form. yeah, it's moving forward. I'm pleased to see that it's starting to become a little bit more inclusive.

Dan: That's good. I like hearing I like to hear that there's a place for everyone. Essentially, I love that. I was speaking to a comedian, Mike Knox. And I had the question for him, you know, is the world of comedy a young person's game only? And when they see an older person, like what's what's this old guy doing here? And he had very, very distinct view on that, which is which is a good one. So I'm glad to hear that in your scenario that there is change happening, not just at the appearance level, but also the age level as well. That is great to hear. Okay, so let's let's pivot and talk about you as a teacher. So you did you switch from being a professional to clean cut teaching? Was there overlap? What was that like?

Jena Kocsis: there was a large amount of overlap in the performing world. Because of your contract length and the funding that often is never quite enough. We all had to have our side jobs. And I was very, very lucky in high school, during my training that my mentor Nathalie Le Vine also started a pedagogy program. And she started teaching some of our students. So I actually started in high school learning the ballet pedagogy and the training. And then that springboarded me through my professional career to kind of study with some other artists that were talking about curriculum building and talking about that evolution from where we start to where we want to be. And so I was very, very lucky to be able to teach through pretty much my entire performing career. made for some very long days, because I would be dancing myself all day and then go straight to teaching all evening. But it set me up really nicely to be able to go in to owning my own studio in my own business and have a really great idea about where I wanted that to be and how to progress students. So there was a lot of overlap Some people do clear cut, some people definitely will decide that they're going to retire and then just pivot to teaching. But I'm really thankful that I took the path that I did, because it gave me a lot of self reflection and to be able to see how what we were working on in the studio with my own students kind of fit into the performing aspect too. There was a lot of overlap and growth during that period of my life.

Dan: okay. So we talked earlier about typical day or typical week. Being a performer. What about a typical day or a week as a ballet teacher? Now, I assume you kind of set your own schedules. But I'm guessing depending on the age you're working with, you're probably mostly after typical work hours after school hours, weekends, what is typical for you from a teaching perspective as far as the time goes?

Jena Kocsis: I'm going to give you kind of a double sided answer here. Because when I'm working for a local studio, and I'm working for someone outside of myself, there's absolutely a schedule that they as a school set. And so they will often approach me and say we have these classes on these days, would you be available to teach them? And so all of those are absolutely after a typical school day. So they'd be in the afternoons, or evenings, anywhere from say, four o'clock to nine o'clock. And then often schools will run classes on Saturdays for those younger students that maybe can't handle coming in after a school day. And we do the Saturday morning classes mostly for the young ones and rehearsals will often fall on Saturdays. Now for myself and my own business, I could absolutely decide to set all of my own hours. But there's a caveat to that, right? We have to set hours when we know we're going to have people to teach. So for me, currently, my own business caters to adult dancers specifically. So my virtual studio is only teaching adult dancers that either want to start or return to ballet. And so I have to offer classes when they are not working or, you know, they have time in their schedule. So I can set my own schedule, but there's limits.

Dan: I think that's neat that what would want to say people that returning to ballet as adults, I understand that one. But I think it's neat, the people that are starting ballet as adults, I find that very fascinating. Because it seems to me, it's like a very, very, very specific thing that someone wants to do. Do you find a lot? Okay, so break it down. How many how many of your students are returning from ballet? And how many are like brand new trying this for the first time percentage wise?

Jena Kocsis: there's probably 50 to 60% that are returners. Yeah, they dance, they miss it. They've come back to it, right? We put it on the back burner, any other hobby, right? We have children, we do the adult things, and then we come back to it. But there is this growing group of people that, you know, didn't have the opportunity, or they didn't have the means, you know, or time as a child is something that they always wanted to do. And so I'm hoping to fill that niche, because I think it's one again, that ageist thing, right, where we are told that it's something that if you didn't start young, you won't get to. And it's just such this a myth. And beyond that, as we age, ballet is one of the best movements that you can do for an aging body, we're stretching, we're strengthening, we're toning, but a lengthened toning, not a building toning, just it's your own muscle mass, and your own weight bearing. So particularly for women, which is a high percentage of my student base, as we age, and we get older, osteoporosis really needs that weight bearing exercise. So we don't need weights, it's our own body, it's our own strength. And it's really great. And I wanted to fill this niche that gave real true ballet. And it wasn't just this ballet fitness that became very trendy for a while that had ballet roots, but it was really cardio. There's quite a few people out there that are able to kind of pursue this later in life, which is wonderful to see. It's always great to see somebody find joy and something they always wanted to try.

Dan: That is really cool. Prior to our conversation, I never would have guessed there would have been ... I hate to go all businessy, but like a market for that. That's incredible. That's really, really cool. Before you talked about working at another another school, aside from doing your own your own business, how difficult is it for someone to and I realize this has got a lot of variables here. But generally speaking, how difficult is it to find a job teaching ballet at one of these schools? Is there like, is there frequently openings? Is it like, no, once people start doing it, they're there for life, I hate to say. But what is that typically like from your experience?

Jena Kocsis: From my experience, that is going to depend on the general population of the area you're within, right? So one of the things about the arts industry is that there is typically a turnover rate of some of some level, right? There might be people starting families, there might be people just deciding this isn't paying enough, we can't because so oftentimes teaching dance is a part time job at each location. There are very few schools that can offer you full time hours in one location. So most dance educators are going to be picking up hours at multiple schools if they're doing this full time. So a lot of it is your dynamics, a lot of it is your financial, you know, stability where you are. And a lot of people will go into teaching young and then find that they're finding success in a performing career, and then they follow the job for the performing career. So the larger population base you have, the more success you're going to find in finding a job. But there are definitely people that when they find the right job in the right school, the match made in heaven, right? And that is where they're going to stay until they're done teaching. Because it's like any other job, if it's a really good job for both parties, you tend to kind of hang out there. I know the same thing happens is in the dance teaching world.

Dan: okay, completely unrelated. I want you to think about your career as a dancer, and also your career teaching. And I want to see if you can find a moment in either one of those that has really taught you a lesson about about life or about yourself.

Jena Kocsis: I feel like that's something that's constantly happening, to be honest, particularly when you're working with children, right? I think children in general have us very often revisiting our own experiences and growing. And, and I think children today are really good at that. They're really good at questioning. I go into my classes today and work with a bunch of a wonderful group of teenagers. And they are lovely to work with, they work really hard, they want corrections, but they question everything. They want to know the why they want to know the where for and it has caused me like, there's a lot that I already know, and you continue to grow and learn about human anatomy, but we are having to make connections from, you know, science class, to physics, to what our body is doing and and why. And that part for me is really, really great, because it pulls that whole life experience into what we're doing now, and it makes it more relevant. And I feel like that's constant a constant thing. Every week, there's a new reason why we're talking about the force when you're turning, and why that would be relevant. And for me, that's part of the joy of it too, like this constant learning, it's not ever just this dead path where I already know everything, there's a constant, constant growth. And that's what I love about it, that you're personally finding yourself in what you're doing, you're finding personal growth, but then to be able to articulate that back to a group of kids in a way that they're going to understand, I feel like that's where I'm constantly growing.

Dan: That is fantastic. I absolutely love that answer. That is wonderful. Jena, I am running short on time. But one thing I like to do, whenever I'm speaking with someone, I like to give them the opportunity to talk about a project they're working on, a cause they believe in if you want to talk more about your business, I like to leave it open ended. But the floor is yours.

Jena Kocsis: Well, I know we touched on it little bit, but I run a completely virtual studio for adult dancers only. We offer live classes, you can come take a single class or I offer on demand membership. So all my classes are recorded, not the zoom portion, but myself. So I videotape and offer those in an on demand platform. So you can take class whenever you would like. And there's an all inclusive membership part that has all of it in one package, along with a private community where you get to talk to me and we work together on your ballet journey. That's my big mission is to just work with people that want to dance and learn classical technique and just mentor people on their journey because this is what I love. I want to share it.

Dan: That is fantastic. I'll make sure I get all those links from you. I'll put them in the show notes. I'll be on the website, they'll be all over the place so when people are trying to find you, they can easily find you.

Jena Kocsis: Wonderful. I thank you so much. Our conversation has been such a pleasure.

Dan: It's been absolutely wonderful. The pleasure is on this side of the camera. Jena, it's been fantastic having you on Time We Discuss and we'll learned what it's like to be a ballerina dancer as well as a teacher. Thank you so much.