Time We Discuss: What It Is Really Like to Be a Family Law Attorney (Jolee Vacchi)

Transcription

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Jolee Vacchi: So this is a constant battle that I think every family law attorney deals with. I know I certainly do. And it's definitely gotten better for me to establish some boundaries over time.

Dan: Today on Time We Discuss, I want to welcome Jolee Vacchi and it's time we discuss what it's like being a family law attorney. Jolee, thank you for joining me today.

Jolee: Thanks for having me, Dan. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

Dan: Me too. This is cool. I've spoken to a number of attorneys. They all have their own different practices and specialties, but I haven't encountered family law before. So this is going to be really cool.

Jolee: Yes. Family law has its own flavor, so I can't wait to talk about it.

Dan: So let's start here. Let's start with defining what exactly in family law, what exactly do you do? Obviously families, but in what capacity?

Jolee: I represent clients who mostly are going through divorces. That's like our number one case type. But also when parents are married, there's also custody cases that we help them with. And then after divorces and custody cases have ended, sometimes people have to go back to file modifications to change orders later when kids get older or things, circumstances change in their life. We also do cases that are called guardianships of a minor. So sometimes it's like grandparents who are seeking to have guardianships of their grandchildren. And then we do some drafting work. So prenuptial agreements and postnuptial agreements. So that's really what our bread and butter is.

Dan: OK, so I was speaking with Russell Little. He was a divorce attorney. I spoke to him back in May of last year, this past year. I really should remember this, but I definitely don't. Is divorce law different from family law or the same thing, different name?

Jolee: I consider divorce to be under the umbrella of family law in Massachusetts and Rhode Island where I practice. All of these case types that I just mentioned are heard in the same court. So it might be a little bit different in different states because every state has different laws, but I would call it a major part of family law is divorce.

Dan: So let's stick with the court since you mentioned that. What is that like? Are you typically in court frequently? Is it like a once a month? What is that generally like being in court?

Jolee: It can really vary. So some weeks I'm in court multiple days. For example, I had a three day divorce trial last week, so I was in court almost every day. Other weeks I could be there once or twice a week. And then some weeks I just don't have any court appearances. It really fluctuates based off of my calendar. So it can be a little bit unpredictable, but it's pretty regular that I am actually appearing in court.

Dan: When you're in court, are you representing more of the different types of scenarios regularly? So for instance, divorce is more common that you're in court as opposed to maybe custody or something like that. What's the breakout like?

Jolee: Divorces are so dependent upon the specific facts. So sometimes we have people who are getting divorced and there's not many contested issues. They kind of agree on most things. It's a little bit more civil, so we're not appearing in court as regularly with those clients. But I mean, child custody disputes are one of the most frequent case types where we're going to be appearing in court more often than not. Because a lot of times we need motion for temporary orders, which means that there's orders in effect like while the whole case is playing out, like we need a temporary parenting plan or we need a temporary child support order. So in those kind of cases, we'll be having more frequent court appearances.

Dan: Okay. When you do stuff like that? How often are you interacting with the social workers? I'm assuming pretty regularly.

Jolee: Where I practice we have, they're called guardian ad litems. And so they are either family law attorneys or social workers who are appointed by the court to do an investigation and determine what's in the best interest of the child. So in those cases, I do have frequent interactions with the, we call them GALs. Other cases, we might have an attorney who is appointed to actually represent the child. They're called ARC counsel, attorney representing the child. So I'll be interacting with them a lot. But again, it's really dependent upon the circumstances and if it's a contested kind of custody situation.

Dan: Okay. All right. I'm going to hang on this for just a little bit longer. So my wife in a previous life, she was a social worker. And as you would expect with that line of work, separating out the emotional side of the work with your regular life can be challenging. So in your line of work, is that challenging at all for you? Where you, especially with kids where you, they're going through their thing and you're trying to do what's in their best interest and then coming home and shutting that part of your brain off. What is that like?

Jolee: Oh boy. Yeah. So this is a constant battle that I think every family law attorney deals with. I know I certainly do. And it's definitely gotten better for me to establish some boundaries over time as I get, you know, more experience. But I mean, we are dealing with really heavy issues. I mean, there's child abuse and neglect. I mean, there's sexual abuse. There's substance abuse, mental health. I mean, it runs the gamut. And so, you know, those, it's, I'm still a human, you know, and I, I have emotions and I have compassion. But one of the most important things is having the ability to have those boundaries because I need to be the clear level headed one who's looking at the case objectively so I can convey that information to the court. But, you know, sometimes some stuff happens and I mean, I'm heartbroken for my client or their children. And, you know, I do come home and I, you know, I think about it, but then I try to, you know, be present and I'm a mom myself and I want to give my attention to my own children. And so like I said, I, I've developed better, I guess coping skills, you can call it over time. I think it's really important for people in this practice area to have their own, you know, support. Like I've been to therapy before. I work with a life coach now and I really think that's essential to be able to separate the issues because you're right. It's really heavy stuff.

Dan: I just thought about this. This is interesting. I was speaking with, no, I wasn't speaking with, I was watching, there's a YouTube character called Dave Benson. He has a Dave Benson show. It's kind of like a late night style show. Really funny guy. But one of the things he talked about, he had a guest on and they were talking about, she was an actress and she was talking about that in the acting world, an upcoming trend is having mental health professionals on staff to work with the actors because they might be, you know, in a scene where they're doing horrific things or something like that. And it can actually take a toll on the actor or actress. So in your line of work, is there any trend like that where they encourage lawyers or staff that might be involved in these cases to also, if you need help, go seek it. Is there anything like that currently?

Jolee: I am licensed in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. And I'm happy to say that like both of those bar associations have, I mean, they're called like lawyers helping lawyers programs. And it's a place where attorneys can reach out for support from other members of the bar. It's confidential. I mean, the statistics are pretty staggering. Like our profession has a higher than average substance abuse issues, especially with alcohol. And I mean, I think a lot of that is from like we just were talking about the coping mechanism for dealing with these really high conflict issues. But it is more of an emerging trend to focus on like mindfulness and mental health support. And I hope that continues because it is certainly needed.

Dan: That is really good to hear. Okay. Well, okay. Let's go. Let's shift completely. Let's go back to the beginning. Okay. So you went to school, law school, decided family law. Why family law?

Jolee: I'm the kind of a weird breed for attorneys, I would say, because I knew I wanted to be a lawyer from like the time I was a little girl. And that's like very uncommon, but I didn't know any attorneys in real life. I just saw them on TV on like Law and Order and Ally McBeal. It was a show a long time ago and I saw them and I was like, that's what I want to do. And I saw it as a profession that was, I'd be able to help people and that's really what my goal was. So actually when I was in high school, I interned for a divorce attorney. And that was a wonderful experience for me because I got exposure to, you know, what I was actually saying that I was interested in. And it really clicked with me and that attorney really became a role model for me. And now she is actually a judge that I practice in front of. So it's really cool that that kind of came full circle. So like when I went to undergrad, I knew I wanted to do a degree with something that would really help me to get into law school. So I double majored in criminology and US history. And I thought those were great because they're really heavily focused on research and writing, which are really crucial tools for law school. So, I mean, you could pick a variety of things. That's just what I picked, but it did serve me well. And then I went right to law school from undergrad. And I knew, I already knew I wanted to do family law because of my previous experience. So I just took every elective I could in that practice area. So obviously I took family law, but I took domestic violence in the law. I became a certified mediator, which is really great because I'm able to mediate divorce cases now as well. And I just got more and more as much experience as I could in that practice area when I was in law school. So that's kind of how it all came together.

Dan: Talk about the desire to help people. Obviously that does not hurt with doing what you're doing. How important is that, that you have that underlying drive inside of you to help people? How important is that doing the kind of law that you practice?

Jolee: I think it's essential because I mean, there are really bad family law attorneys out there. I work with them every day as opposing counsel on cases. And you can tell they're just, their heart's not in it. They're like jaded and it's just kind of like they're going through the motions in an assembly line. And that's totally a different way than I practice family law and my associates practice it. We say that we are compassionate divorce practitioners. So we have a lot of empathy for our clients that helps us understand not only what their goals are, but why those goals are important to them. And then we can communicate that to the court. So I think it's an essential that you want to do this kind of work, but you also have that willingness or desire to want to help and make a difference.

Dan: It almost sounds almost like when people get burnt out almost where it's like their desire is not there, they've been doing it too long. They should have retired yesterday, something like that. But in a situation like that where it seems that their heart isn't in it anymore, you know, I'm going to choose to believe at one point in time, maybe it was, but when they've done it all, they can't do it anymore. If they wanted to pivot into another type of law, is there another specialty that's a little more well-suited to go from family law to this other type of law?

Jolee: I'd say estate planning is a great pivot because you're still working with people and families and you're helping them plan for their estate after death. It's a lot of drafting. It's not litigating. You're not in court. You're not negotiating. So I think that would be a great pivot for them. And then also I do think they could probably stay in family law, but in a different way. So instead of representing clients in court, they could perhaps become like we have, we call them conciliators or arbitrators where they are meeting with people who are on different sides and they're basically making decisions for them. So like, they're opting, these people are opting out of court because they don't want to deal and pay for a trial, but they go into like a binding arbitration process. And this former attorney could be the arbitrator and decide, you know, who's going to get what. So I think that could be another possibility for them to explore too.

Dan: So one of the things I like to do on my show is like look at people starting in their career and people pivoting into their career or pivoting out of their career. And that's a really good example of a situation where they could kind of pivot and go in something that's kind of tangentially related.

Jolee: Yes, absolutely.

Dan: Okay. So let's talk about work-life balance. You talked about this very, very briefly. What is the work-life balance for someone that is involved in family law?

Jolee: It's tough. And like I said, it's an ongoing endeavor that I'm working on. And I think all of my colleagues are working on. It's a lot of long hours as a family law attorney. You know, there are definitely ebbs and flows, but like I mentioned, like when I had my three day divorce trial last week, like I was working, you know, 14, 15 hour days prepping for trial and then having to go and do court for eight hours. So you need a lot of stamina. I'm so lucky that I have so much support, especially like my husband, my family that is able to help me with my kids and my home life in those times where like my work just needs more of my attention because I'm just one person. I can't do everything for everybody. So when those times of high stress and long hours come along, it's so important to have that support because you just can't do everything.

Dan: Do you have your own firm or do you work in a firm?

Jolee: I previously worked at a larger law firm and I was an associate there and I worked up to being a supervising attorney there and it was a family law firm. I did similar case types, but we're going almost three years ago now. I left that job to start my own firm. So I've had my own business for about three years. We have a staff of six. We have two other full-time attorneys. So I'm also, in addition to being a family law practitioner and an attorney, I'm also a law firm owner. So I wear a lot of different hats.

Dan: That leads me to this question. So why did you decide to do that and how did you go about doing that?

Jolee: That was a big pivot for me in my life. I decided, it wasn't an easy decision and I thought about it for a long time, but I liked my firm, the last place that I worked a lot when I started out there, but over time, it just wasn't feeling aligned with the way that I wanted to practice family law. They're very focused on aggressive litigation tactics and that's completely fine for certain people and certain clients, but I'm more settlement oriented and like I said, I'm a certified mediator. I like trying to resolve these kind of cases outside of court because court isn't really a fun place to be. And so I was starting to marinate on the idea of opening my own firm and I was like, "I'll do that in a year." It was always kind of like a future thing that I would do, but I had it paralegal at my previous firm and she confided in me that she was going to leave the firm. And at that moment, it was like the jolt that I needed to pull the trigger on my dreams. And I said, "Well, I'm going to start my own firm. Why don't you come with me?" And I didn't even know how it was going to pay her. I had no idea if I could pay my mortgage, but she said, "Okay." And her belief in me just gave me, like I said, that confidence that I needed to actually do it. And so I thought that I would be a solo practitioner with a paralegal and we would just do our thing, but I'm so grateful. Our marketing was resonating with people and we just kept getting calls and cases. And so that's, I hired one associate and then I hired two. And then my husband now works full-time for the firm. He retired from his nine to five and he supports our business operations. We have a full-time intake person. So it just kept growing and I never imagined it would be like this, but I'm so happy I did it and now I wish I did it earlier.

Dan: This is going to be good. Okay. So last year I spoke with this woman, Julie Coraccio, I think was her name, and she was a professional declutterer. And her story was really cool. I forget what she was doing professionally, but she decided that she was going to start this decluttering business. And she decided that July 1st was the day she was going to start it. She quit her job. Next day started, or I'm saying next day, it might've been like a week later, whatever it was. But she had no real, no real plan. I'm using this like very loosely. It's also been a little bit of time, so I might not be remembering this completely accurately. But I remember that it was like, kind of like what you were saying, almost like, okay, I have this new business. What now? So for you, an attorney's hours are massive. Okay. You said before, preparing for court, 15 hour days possibly. So did you in starting your new firm, did you resign cold turkey and then start the firm? Did you try to do them at the same time? What was that like?

Jolee: I did all of the like prep work while I was still employed for my old firm. So I like set up my LLC and I got my bank accounts. I had to get malpractice insurance was like a major thing. So I was doing all of that in the background while I still had my day job. So that way I gave my notice on a Friday, you know, they didn't want me there anymore. And so literally that following Monday, my firm was open and it was ready to go.

Dan: I love it. I love it. And how long before you had that first client?

Jolee: I am very lucky and the rules are a little bit different for attorneys and they are in other practice and other professions. So all of the power lies with the clients. So when an attorney separates from the firm, the client gets the choice of either staying with the previous law firm, going with the attorney to their new place of employment or just getting a new attorney altogether. And I'm so lucky that 17 of my clients that I had from the last firm wanted to come with me. And so really I was able to start hitting the ground running on day one. Cause I already had clients and cases that I'd already spent a lot of time working on. And I was just able to continue doing that.

Dan: Wow. I am blown away by that number. That is really cool. Okay. And I'm, if someone is going to do this, I think it's safe to say that you not only have to know what you're doing, you have to be a good attorney, but I think probably also have good, very good personal skills where people want to work with you, that you are deciding to leave. They decide they like you that much. They're going to follow you. Wow. Kudos to you. That is amazing.

Jolee: Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I pride myself on being, like I said, a compassionate divorce attorney. So I developed like really close bonds with my clients and we worked together for a long time. Divorces can take years, unfortunately. And like we talk about their most inner most secrets up, even sometimes their best friends or family don't know about. So we have to have this rapport and this trust. And I really think that helped me when I started my own business so that they felt comfortable and wanted to come with me.

Dan: I don't think I mentioned this before when I talked to other attorneys. But if I did, this would be a nice little refresher. Talk to me about PTO. How common is that for attorneys? Do they typically get paid time off or is it more like, no, you have to bring in, you know, X amount of work essentially. And then as long as you're bringing in the work, you take off whenever you want. What is that like?

Jolee: It varies differing from firm to firm. Like at my last firm, we had an unlimited vacation policy, but no one could ever really take it because we still had billable hours that we had to meet. And so it just felt like it wasn't aligned there. I will say like we have PTO at my firm. Like I got to make the rules when I started my own business. Right. And it was really important to me that my staff took those vacations because like I said, burnout is real in this profession. And like I when people haven't taken their PTO for a while, like I'll tell them like, I think you need a vacation next month. And so I'll encourage them to use that. So like I said, it varies from firm to firm. At least that's what our philosophy is at our place.

Dan: That's good to know. Because sometimes people might go in thinking one thing and then finding out like, well, no, not necessarily.

Jolee: Exactly. It can kind of be like a bait and switch. It's like, oh, yeah, you have this great policy, but you know, you have so many billable hours that it's not even possible to do it. And so it's definitely worth asking about when you're you know, if you have an offer on the table.

Dan: All right. Good to know. Changing gears completely. Okay. One of the things I liked about one of the things I like to ask about are hidden perks that might go along with the job. So for instance, you know, maybe you work at a coffee company and you get free coffee or something like that. What are some of the hidden perks that are part of being a family attorney?

Jolee: You get to meet a lot of people. So I mean, not only my clients, but obviously, like I know a lot of other attorneys, I know a lot of court staff, there's a lot of people that I could reach out to if I was in a pinch and I needed help and support on something. So I think that's one of the perks. I mean, honestly, my favorite part of this job is just I know it sounds so cliche, but like what the divorce day when my clients get divorced is like the best day of the year. Like we literally have a celebration at the courthouse. We hug, there are smiles. I get to hear like what their plans are. My clients, you know, sometimes they have parties planned with friends or they're going to go on a trip to celebrate. And just like being a part of that process and knowing I'm helping them put a closure on that chapter so they can start something completely new with a blank slate. Like I will never get over. That's like the best feeling in the world for me.

Dan: I can understand that because I like that it could take a long time and just having that closure like this finally done, especially if it's long and drawn out like that. I can only imagine.

Jolee: Yeah, it's wonderful. Like I said, nothing beats it.

Dan: One of the other things I'd like to ask is identifying different barriers for people. And one of my favorites that I'd like to ask is specifically, you know, if if you don't like this aspect about this job, this job is not for you. So the classic example I say, you know, I was a web developer in my past life. So I say, you know, if you don't like sitting in front of a computer for eight to ten hours a day, computer programming, that is not for you. So what is something? What are those obstacles where it's like if you don't like this family law is not for you.

Jolee: If you don't like public speaking, family law is not for you. We have to do a lot of that in court. And I mean, we are standing up there making arguments to the judge. Like it's just like it looks like on TV. So and I mean, I still get like butterflies because everyone's a little nervous and they don't want to look like an idiot when they talk out loud, but you can't have it be a paralyzing fear. Otherwise, you're never going to be an effective attorney for your client. And then also dealing in high emotional situations. I mean, divorces are messy. Child custody disputes are messy. Our clients are experiencing the worst blowup of their life and everything's falling apart and they're looking to us to help put it back together. And so when you can't be stressed out by people who cry, but like people who might yell at you because you're just the closest person that they're venting to. And so if you can't deal with that, then you want to steer clear of this practice area.

Dan: Jolee, this is all really, really good information. Unfortunately, I am running out of time. But before I hand the floor over to you, I want to take a second and thank Ashley DiBiase for introducing us. Ashley is from Dash of Social. She was on episode 62. Please everyone go check out her video. The episode link is in the description. Now, Jolee, this is the part of the show where I like to offer my guests the opportunity to talk about a project they're working on, cause they believe it more about their business. If there's something specific you'd like to discuss, the floor is yours.

Jolee: Thank you. So I mean, I guess I'll talk about my firm. So it's called Foundations Family Law and Mediation Center. And we're based in Worcester County, Massachusetts. We practice in all of central to eastern Massachusetts and Rhode Island. We have an all female legal team and our philosophy is that we resolve family law conflicts as painlessly and peacefully as possible. So I love to throw in a plug for that. And then just for anyone else who may be interested, since, you know, this is a podcast, I do co-host my own podcast. It's called Divorce Detox. And I co-host it with a divorce coach. So I give, you know, like the legal perspective and she's able to give her, you know, like emotional regulation perspective. And I just think it's a great blend and we have over 80 episodes available. So just check that out.

Dan: Jolee, that is awesome. I'll make sure I get all of those links from you. They'll be in the description. They'll be in the show notes. I'll be on the web. They'll be all over the place where people are trying to find you if they can easily do that.

Jolee: Thank you so much, Dan. This has been so fun.

Dan: Jolee, the pleasure is all on this side of the microphone. Thank you again for joining us on Time We Discuss and we learned what it's like being a family attorney.

Jolee: Thank you.