What It Is Like Working as a Ghostwriter | Career Insights from Jordan Ring

Transcription

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Jordan Ring: I don't think the market is saturated. I think it's definitely ripe for new ghostwriters to come in if you have the gumption to want to do it and can then get that first project, so...

Dan: Today on Time We Discuss, I wanna welcome Jordan Ring and it's time to discuss what it's like working as a ghostwriter. Jordan, thank you for joining me today.

Jordan: Dan, thank you so much for having me. Super excited to be here. I always love talking about this stuff. So yeah, super excited to dig in, so thanks.

Dan: Absolutely, this is gonna be great. Now I have spoken with two other ghostwriters actually, one in season one and one in season two, I believe, but it's always good to get a refresher and see what all is going on in that world if anything has changed, especially as we get into the, you know, more AI stuff and stuff like that. So I'm curious, first, what is a ghostwriter? Let's start there. Tell the audience what exactly do you do?

Jordan: So I'm specifically a book ghostwriter. I've dabbled in helping people with their LinkedIn content in the past and I even do some of that now. 99% of what I do is within books, nonfiction specifically. So nonfiction book ghostwriter. And just a quick summary of what that process looks like. I tell everyone that it's just not just, but most of it is if you're comfortable going on a podcast and you like answering questions, then you can have, you can tap someone ghostwrite your book. Or if you're comfortable leading a podcast like yourself, Dan, then you can be a ghostwriter because the most important part is not the writing, it's being able to dig stories out of people, talk to them and just be curious as well. I'm sure we'll dig into some other things, but that's the first thing I'll say about it.

Dan: Cool, so let's hang on this for a second. So I assumed you would probably want to have formal education in creative writing or English or something like that. Talk to me about your education and how that has played into your role as a ghostwriter.

Jordan: Yeah, that's so interesting. Because, okay, so I got my bachelor's in criminal justice in college, and that has only played a role in terms of psychology, sociology and all those kind of classes, and thinking about like from the human perspective, I would say it has helped, and I don't think I would be a ghostwriter if I hadn't gone to get my degree in that and gone to college. But I did more writing and I was more focused in that realm of things in high school. My humanities classes were my favorite. I had a really good teacher. She was always just helping me with different areas of that. But it's so interesting because I don't think I would have taken all of that and then rolled with it into ghostwriting had I not gone down that path. But yeah, formal education is bachelor's in criminal justice. And it's, yeah, I don't know how I got here.

Dan: (Both Laughing) Okay, cool. So one thing I'm gonna talk about, and this is gonna seem kind of weird approaching it from this angle, but I wanna talk about how to hire a ghostwriter and specifically because if someone's to be a ghostwriter, this is gonna give them some kind of inclination on the other side, what it looks like, where people are looking to find these ghostwriters and the questions they're gonna be asking and stuff like that. So how does someone actually hire a ghostwriter? Where do they look for that?

Jordan: Yeah, that's a great question too because everyone looks in a different place. I mean, you could find ghostwriters anywhere. I'll just say, so you could find ghostwriters on platforms like Upwork or Fiverr or some of those other places. And that's where I started. And those are all great places. Typically the people that work there are the ghostwriters that are getting their start. Maybe they've written books themselves. Maybe they're just having a desire. It's like, hey, I'm a good writer. Why couldn't I put together, especially if you're a good writer and you enjoy talking to people, you could write books and you could get your start on those platforms. But typically, and this is how it goes for me now, most of the people that find me are either finding me on my website or they're finding me through LinkedIn. So you ask, how do they hire a ghostwriter? It starts with that initial contact. And then it's just a period of a process of discovery. Can I help as a ghostwriter? Can I help the person out? Can I do what they're asking, what they need help with? And then you go through the process from there of sending a proposal, having the conversations, can I help you? And then sealing the contract from there. I don't know if you want specific parts of the process, but that's a big overview, I guess.

Dan: No, that's good. I like to kind of take the conversation where it goes. So this is all good stuff. So someone finds a person like you, they find them through a different platform of some kind, maybe their website, and they might want to hire someone like you to ghostwrite. What are some of the things that they're going to ask you? If I'm a ghostwriter, what can I, what do I need to be prepared to answer?

Jordan: People are always gonna, they're always gonna ask you, how much does it cost? And we could go down a full rabbit trail of what you want to charge and all of that. Basically, my number one advice for that is just charge what you're comfortable with. So they're gonna ask that. They're gonna say, what does it cost? They're gonna say, what does the process look like? And I have a set process that I use, but I always tell them, I always tell the person, hey, I have a process, I've written books before, but your process and how we do it together is gonna look different than anyone else I've worked with, because I'm gonna customize it for you. And people, the people I talk with like to hear that, but it's also true. So it's good for like the sales and marketing part of it, but it's also true because I'm gonna make sure that the process works for them because everyone works a little bit differently. And so for example, I have some people that say, Jordan, I wanna get on an interview and talk with you every week like it's a podcast. And say, that's great. That is the standard process, fantastic. Some other people, and I've done this for several people now, they say, I don't actually want to get on a call with you and like do that live. I would rather have you send me questions and then you can, then they would answer via voice notes on WhatsApp or whatever it is, asynchronously. And I'm indifferent for that. Like, hey, if you wanna take your time and answer over a period of a week, as you're thinking about it, as you're walking to work or whatever you end up doing, whatever you do with, whenever you have some free time, that works for me. So that's, those are some of the questions and there are so many questions. It's such a great, your question is a great question because I still am surprised at some of the questions that I get from people. But the most importantly is just being honest about your process and what it looks like. And then, if you can help them, great. And if you can't help them being honest about that too, it's like, hey, I don't know if I can do this specifically. Like if it's military, like historical fiction or something like that, I'm not gonna be the ghostwriter for that, I'm gonna point them somewhere else. So those are just some of the questions.

Dan: Okay, so let's, and I never talk about specifics when it comes to money on my show. That's true, I don't do that. Okay, but generally speaking, when it comes to getting paid as a ghostwriter, what is common? Do you get an hourly rate? Do you bill them in like quarter hour increments essentially? Is it like per word, per chapter? How does, what does it seem like most people are doing in that ecosystem?

Jordan: That's funny because I have done all of those that you've just said. And I know most of their ghosts have probably gone through a process of finding out what works best for them. There's a lot of self limitation that goes into that that I've seen from a lot of other ghostwriters. They think, oh, I can't charge a high amount for whatever reason, or I have to do it hourly or I have to do it via milestones or things like that. Again, important to do what works for you and to kind of take a step back and think about what can I do and what are my clients gonna be okay with? Because a lot of clients won't push back. If you say, this is my process, this is how I wanna get paid, or this is what works for me. Even if you're completely different than other people in the industry, which I am, my process is probably a little bit different. I have people pay me, and it's not totally different. Other ghostwriters will do this, but I have people pay in advance because for, especially for a book, when someone comes to me and they say, I wanna write a book, got this contract signed and all of that, my schedule is then booked out for six months at least, and I only take on a few projects at a time. So if that person just decides to go AWOL, it's not that it's like one out of 20 projects I may have, if you do freelancing in a different arena. It's one out of two, and that affects my livelihood more, and it's the same for other ghosts in that way as well. Ghost book ghostwriters. We try to protect our income in that way. So I don't know if it's like advice, but I think it's great to charge upfront, and it's good for the client too, honestly. It's not just a one-sided thing because they get the buy-in right off and they're gonna take that seriously. So hopefully that answers your question.

Dan: Yeah, that is awesome. So talking about contracts for a second, it sounds like you are working with a contract in some capacity. Is that done with, how do I wanna phrase this, between an individual and you, or is it through a publishing company and you? Is it, do you get your attorney involved? How does, do you have a standard template that you got for free somewhere? How did the contract part start for you?

Jordan: The contract is not through a publishing, it's through me. I have an LLC that I do that through, but really, yes, it started with a template here in the very beginning, just to be honest. And then it has since molded itself into my contract that I use. And that's been based on, of course, lessons that I've learned just to be honest, and as well as client questions. They say, "Hey, Jordan, what about this?" I mean, I've had people recently say, "Actually, I'm not sure about this part of your contract. Like how stuck are you on that?" And I'm like, "I'm okay if we change it around a little bit." Like I don't want it to be a stop gap or a point where someone says, "I don't wanna work with you because of this one point in the contract." But it is good to eventually build that and to be able to protect yourself. So, but yeah, the contract piece has, as it molded and evolved over time as I've been doing this. And I feel like that's so normal. Start from a template and then build it to what works for you and what you have seen. Don't build it just on other people's red flags, if that makes sense.

Dan: That is perfect. That's really, really good information. Okay, so you talked about Upwork. Talk to me a little bit more about, because I've actually, I've heard of the platform, I know nothing about it. Talk about how people either find a ghost writer on Upwork or how a ghostwriter gets listed on Upwork. Generally, you don't have to get into specifics, but generally speaking, how does that all work?

Jordan: Basically, you would have a profile page, just like you'd have a profile page on LinkedIn. And you can list your previous portfolio and your previous jobs. And then you basically start to build out your own kind of portfolio within the platform. And then eventually you become more known within that platform and people can post jobs and then you can apply to those jobs. And there's other ghostwriters that would say, never don't even think about getting on a platform like Upwork. I don't take that advice. I think it's a fine place to start. If you're comfortable starting a little bit lower with your rates, because you're gonna be competing from those type of platforms and Upwork is included in this. In my opinion, there can be a little bit of a race to the bottom. There's people that are wanting to pay the lowest price and aren't as concerned about quality. Which is also fine if you wanna do a specific task. And if you wanna get some experience on there, also fine. But yeah, basically you build a profile page and then you can kind of go from there applying to jobs. And it works in a way because it's hard to start from nothing. So the ghosts that say, okay, don't go to Upwork, don't go to these places. Where are you starting? You don't have a referral network. Maybe you're just building out your social media. Maybe you don't even have like a LinkedIn or maybe you don't even have your own website. Or if you do have your own website, you can just go through the website and see how are people finding you there. So it really is whatever ends up working for you and what you are trying to do with that. But it's important to look at all the different avenues and what it all means.

Dan: Okay, cool. So let's go back to your beginning. I know you said you didn't remember how you got started, but let's try to dive into that a little bit more.

Jordan: Yeah.

Dan: Try to think of your first paying client. And how did you get that person? Was it just you heard someone was looking for a ghostwriter and you're like, I could do this for a very affordable fee. How did you get that first client?

Jordan: So let's go right back. I had my first client on Upwork and this is why I am more of a, in some ways it's not the greatest system in the world, but I got my start on there. I had written books for myself before under my own name. So there was kind of, I already had some experience in the field, which I think to have something is important. It just depends on how much you wanna have going into it, but, or how much you feel you need to have. But yeah, for me, writing my own books was helpful in that way. So I jumped on Upwork and it, honestly, Dan, I think the, my, I got my start because I said, you know what, I've written books for myself. I've had some success. I can do it for other people. I wanna be a ghostwriter. That, that decision point of me saying, I'm gonna do this was, I know it's like a mindset thing and some people are gonna roll their eyes. Maybe, I don't know, but for me, it is the point of decision and then saying, I'm gonna do this. And then from there I found, I found my first client and it was a great, great experience on the Upwork platform. It was amazing experience. So I'm all about it.

Dan: Talk to me about saturation. What's been your experience, I guess more recently, do you find that there's more work out there than, most people can handle? So no, not that they can handle, but there's plenty of work for everyone or it's kind of drying up or it's been consistent. What's that been like?

Jordan: I've been in it for five years now and I've seen the ups and downs, but I still feel, I still feel like new, if that makes sense. Like a lot of the other ghostwriters that I know have been doing it for 10 years plus. So I don't know what that signals necessarily. I think some people try to get started because it's one of those things, especially book ghostwriting, you get one project, that's fantastic, that's great. But going from that zero to that first project can be challenging. Because like I said, it took me that decision point, but it also took me a little time to find that first project. And I had already written books for myself. So I think once you can kind of knock down the door and get in, then okay, okay, you have that, you've done it before. But in terms of saturation, I think there's such a mix because I think I've seen some years where it feels like there's no one asking you. And then other years where you think, okay, and I've only been doing this for five years, but like, can I actually say yes to this project like I want to? Because maybe the year before was a little bit less or something like that. But yeah, so I think it's hard to say because everyone's opinion and view on market saturation is gonna be from their perspective. I think it's not, because everyone will say like, well, it was a really rough year last year. Was it rough for you? Or do you know that just anecdotally from like a few conversations you've had? So very hard to say. I don't think the market is saturated. I think it's definitely ripe for new ghostwriters to come in if you have the gumption to want to do it and can then break through that first, get that first project.

Dan: That is awesome. I love that. I love hearing different occupations where it's a lot of opportunity for people of various skills. I absolutely love that.

Jordan: Yes.

Dan: Okay, switching gears kind of. And we see this sometimes in other industries. I was speaking with a webpage designer, Liz Theresa, her episode just dropped pretty recently. And we talked about aside from being a designer, other skills that she might be utilizing. She might be working with readability, accessibility, stuff like that. So my question for you as a ghostwriter, are you ever involved with other skills that are tangentially related? So maybe does a ghostwriter also need to have intimate knowledge on the publishing industry or something like that. Talk to me about some of those other things.

Jordan: Yeah, Dan, I love that question because yes, it's good to have knowledge of the publishing industry, but I would say the most important other skills for a ghostwriter to have is some kind of, it doesn't necessarily have to be a background. It doesn't necessarily have to be upfront experience, but at least some knowledge in marketing because you're gonna have to market yourself unless you go full on with getting an agent, which again, if you're looking for like a zero to one, it's hard to get an agent if you're like, "I have never done this before, I'd like to start." But having some kind of marketing practice. And what I mean by that is being able to get on a call with someone and being able to answer their questions and to have like a discovery call with a potential client that shows that you're confident. Obviously you wanna be honest, you don't wanna say, "Hey, I have 10 best-selling books to my name." Don't make any claims like that, but it's just that. It's knowing what to say and to be comfortable with that. I mean, I don't have the, I said I was criminal justice. I don't have like the best, the biggest marketing background. I did a little bit in some of my previous jobs and I say I did a little bit, I learned quite a bit in those jobs, but I found that that is the biggest carryover into what I do. I've told people if I didn't have a marketing, if I didn't have some marketing, I don't know how I would sell myself on these projects because it's not just a few hundred dollars. It's a bigger investment for the people I'm talking with. So there has to be a level of comfort with those kind of sales conversations and the follow-ups and everything that goes into that. Yeah, like we talked about the contracts and sending an invoice and having all of that. I mean, that's all figureoutable, but being somewhat confident in there is vital.

Dan: Awesome, okay. I'm gonna hang on this just a little bit longer. So your scenario is perfect. I asked this question a fair amount and I love this question, especially in a scenario like yours. Okay, so here you are, you're a ghostwriter, criminal justice, you went to higher ed, degree in criminal justice, no business degree. Okay, so how did you bridge the gap between the business knowledge so that you can be successful in the way that you are now?

Jordan: It was helpful to have, again, a little bit of the marketing in the work that it, that helped bridge the gap. And a lot of the rest is, I would say the key is just being in it long enough to make enough mistakes and to figure it out. Like I don't think there's a more like, yeah, that's not like super exciting advice for like popping into the industry, but I do feel like it's the one that, like being someone that is not gonna like stop, like being relentless and then just always just trying to figure things out, even if you're gonna make mistakes. I've been doing this, I've been in the online world for, well doing like online business stuff for 10 years and I don't have anywhere, I don't have it all figured out. I think, and we're all still trying to figure things out. Hopefully that answers your question well enough, but I do think that is probably the most important thing. Again, it's a mindset thing too, but it's, I found that to be so valuable just in myself and not just not giving up, so.

Dan: Yeah, that's perfect. Sometimes people, they come back with personality traits, podcasts, books, I mean, I get all kinds of resources that I'm able then share with my listeners and watchers. So that is perfect. So you talked before about LinkedIn, and I believe you said ghostwriting on LinkedIn. It sounds like maybe you have ghostwriters that write profiles for people or something. Is that a thing?

Jordan: There's ghostwriters that will do like marketing type deliverables, like writing emails or delivering other kinds of copies. So like a copy ghostwriter. There's also LinkedIn content ghostwriter or any kind of social media content ghostwriter. That's where I kind of differentiate between those areas. Whereas like I'm nonfiction, nonfiction book ghostwriter, you could have a fiction ghostwriter, someone that's gonna write your fantasy stories or things like that. And not every ghostwriter does all that, because again, I don't do fiction and I'm not gonna write someone's copy on an email list newsletter. I have done that before. Don't do that anymore, because I just am in the book arena now and enjoying it.

Dan: I want you to think about part of the job that is crucial, okay? And I like to say if a person doesn't like blank, this job isn't for them. So for instance, again, when I was speaking with Liz Theresa, she was talking about if you don't like sitting in front of a computer for eight hours a day, being a web designer is not for you. So what is one of those things where it's like, if you don't like this thing, being a ghostwriter, not for you.

Jordan: One of the biggest strengths for a writer is of course, being in front of a computer and writing. But if you don't like talking to people on Zoom, it is gonna be very difficult to be a book ghostwriter specifically, because you need to be good at the interviewing process. You need to be relatable. You can't be someone that just wants to sit behind a screen and write. And I say that you could be, but I think there's a cap on what you could eventually earn if you're just sitting behind deliverables and if someone's sending you content to write up or things like that. But having the conversation with people, thinking through ideas, asking good questions, all of those, it's necessary. And Dan, I've had to learn that because I'm like 100% introvert as a writer. I would love to just sit behind my computer. I would, but I've learned that that is such an essential part of it. And I honestly do enjoy it now that I've been able to kind of figure out how to fit it into the rest of my personality and business and all that.

Dan: Okay, I love that. I've said this before on the show, I am also a crazy introvert as well. So when you say that, I completely get that. What is something that maybe you learned that it's like, oh man, I wish I learned this sooner. It would have saved me so much time, so much money, aggravation. What is that one thing, if you can pick just one, if it's possible, that would fall into that category?

Jordan: You want every client to be great, but expecting that every project will go exactly how you want it to go. And I think for me, it was like one of my first projects was it wasn't the exact first, but it was close, has been the best project I've ever worked on. And it was so interesting to me to have that in the very beginning. So I'll just say that past success does not guarantee future success. And I think I have fallen into that trap too many times. Like, this is gonna be great. And maybe I don't need to explain my process. And maybe we'll just have these interviews and it will go the same. So to refer way back to what we said in the beginning, maybe the piece of advice is knowing that everyone is a little bit different and not being too stuck on your process. And I definitely had to learn that. It's like, well, this worked the one time for this one person, it should work this time too. And it did not. So.

Dan: That is good information. Okay, how about when it comes to word of mouth, do you ever get authors that refer? And obviously this is gonna be different for everyone, but just generally speaking, your experience, do you get authors that refer other referrals? Is that network kind of tight? Or do you have people come back for a second book? What's been your success like with that?

Jordan: People have come back and my people have referred other people to me as well. Like it definitely is one of those things. It's like the better job you do and the more you focus on your clients. And again, if you can break through that initial barrier, people will come back. But it's totally, like, especially with books, it's a patience thing. It's a patience thing to break through that first barrier and then say to be in it for the long haul too, because if they're gonna write a second book, it's not gonna be within a year probably. Cause they're gonna be a little bit tired and burnout from the process that is normal. Everyone is gonna feel that. I've written eight books under my own name now. I feel that every time after. Like, okay, I'm done. I'm not gonna do this for a while. Next year I pick it up again. But yeah, it's being patient with the process. Cause if you do a really good job for your client, even if you do the best job in the world, they may not come back until three years later. That's happened to me before too. Hey, I'm thinking about another book. I almost forgot you existed.

Dan: Jordan, that's really good information. It's nice to know that the author community is a tight-knit community and they do tend to help each other out in that way. Now, Jordan, unfortunately I am running out of time, but before I hand the floor over to you, I wanna take a second and thank Tamara Pflug for introducing us. Tamara was in episode 49 as a confidence coach. So everyone, please go check out that video. The link is in the description. And Jordan, this is the part of the show where I'd like to offer my guests the opportunity to talk about a project they're working on, a cause they believe in, more about their business books. So if there's something specific you'd like to discuss, the floor is yours.

Jordan: Oh no, all I wanna say is that if people wanna connect with me on LinkedIn, that's where I am the most often. And you can see, you get links to my book on there. You can get other links to some free stuff. So definitely check me out on LinkedIn. Rumor has it, if you send me a DM on LinkedIn, I will send you a free copy of my book. Happy to do that. You can get a free audio copy, print copy, whatever is good for you. So connect with me on LinkedIn, send me a direct message there, ask me any questions you may have about ghost writing. And I would be happy to help. That'd be great. So that's all I wanna say, Dan.

Dan: Jordan, that is absolutely awesome. I'll make sure I get the links from you. I'll put them in the description. They'll be in the show notes on the website. They'll be all over the place. So when people are trying to find you, they can easily find you. Jordan, it's been absolutely awesome having you on Time We Discuss and we learned what it's like being a ghostwriter.

Jordan: Thanks, Dan. Appreciate you having me. Have a good one.